Discussion in 'Eldar' started by Noctifer, Dec 15, 2013.
Wow! not much love for the pooping hawks
Who wants to shoot flashlights when you can shoot a monofilament rifle?
Mon'keigh, of course.
In terms of close combat Aspect Warriors, I'd choose Banshees over Striking Scorpions, for three reasons.
Firstly, Striking Scorpions may have a 3+ save, but in the fluff they definitely aren't supposed to be anywhere nearly as durable as the Space Marines. Rather than attempting to be tankier than those comparatively brutish fighters, we'd want to differentiate Eldar gameplay more from the Space Marines, thus Banshees' greater apparent speed and agility would be the way to go. Anyway, in an action game, melee troops need speed and agility to avoid being cut down by gunfire, and a smidgen more durability on the Scorpions is unlikely to improve surviving closure into close combat range; Eldar in this game should be all about speed.
Secondly, the developers can probably have fun deciding how to represent the Banshee Mask in EC. Their namesake howl could be implemented to have interesting effects like a short stun or slow effect, or blurring the enemies' view; whatever they decide, it ought to be pretty cool.
Sure, Scorpions have Mandiblasters, but that's frankly nowhere nearly as interesting, in my opinion.
Thirdly, with the abundance of chainswords we'd see in both the SM and CSM factions, we probably don't want more of the same with the Scorpions. The Banshees' Eldar power swords ought to be more aesthetically pleasing, I see them as having similar designs to the elven blades we see in LotR.
I see Dire Avengers and Dark Reapers both being able to exist side by side.
Purely in terms of EC game mechanics, Dire Avengers would behave more like standard troops, packing high rate-of-fire weapons that can be used on the move. It'd be nice to see their weapon have some special quirks, like having the damage ramp up if many shurikens strike the same target in a short period of time.. the bonus would ramp up even quicker if multiple Dire Avengers work together, thus simulating the Bladestorm!
Dark Reapers would functionally be more similar to the heavy support infantry of other factions (like Devastators), using very powerful, long ranged heavy weapons that require setup time. The developers could also have fun figuring out how to implement the Reaper Rangefinder (like displaying a lead-computing sight to the screen, or some even more creative effect).
And as Warmaster Nate pointed out on the second post, the option to use Starshot Missiles also allow them to fill the ranged anti-armor role, and filling out all these necessary roles is an important factor of EC's class design.
Meanwhile, Fire Dragons, with their fusion guns, are basically an entire class that revolves entirely around.. carrying meltaguns. With all due respect to the Aspect in the background fiction, I really don't think that provides enough flexibility to implement as a player class in EC.
So I'd just go for Dire Avengers and Dark Reapers.
Ah yeah, between Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders, this one's a no-brainer (to me).
I'd definitely go for Warp Spiders, because it's likely all three other factions will have standard jump infantry (Assaults, Raptors and Storm Nobz). I'm all for asymmetric, highly differentiated faction gameplay design, and the warpjump teleport is infinitely more interesting than having yet another normal jumping class.
Plus, I'm sure everyone agrees, the death spinners will be way cooler than las rifles.
Yep, i think most of the eldar players think the same... who knows maybe the devs surprise us and we have warp spiders at release.
But aren't hawks more closer to flying unit than jump troop ? If it's so I'd choose Hawks over spiders anytime.
Hmm, surprisingly, this is actually a tough question to answer.
Swooping Hawks are "Jump Infantry", the same type as the other jump troops.
However, they also have a special ability called "Skyleap", where at the start of their turn, they leap off the battlefield (they literally just leap up and disappear from the gaming table immediately).
From there, during their Skyleap, they're considered to be in "Ongoing Reserve", which means they are temporarily out of the game, but can return on a later turn, in a different location.
The WH40k game does actually have flying units (like aircraft), and when they fly overhead they are actually "on" the table, moving around, able to move off a table edge and fly back on a later turn. They don't actually vanish in the manner of Skyleap.
So I'm really not sure what the Swooping Hawks' Skyleap move represents, since they immediately leap up and disappear completely, returning at a later time. I mean, I'm not sure what kind of move it represents, or what it would look like in "reality" (inasmuch that 40k isn't real real, but you know what I mean).
The leap up goes straight into low altitude, probably about 1000 ft. or so, just out of range of enemy small arms fire. The Eldar are too small for both small arms or for scanners to spot these unconventional fliers. Just like shooting at HALO jumpers, there's nothing to gain from trying to shoot them, it simply won't hit.
I'm from a military family, and my dad was an officer of the paratroopers. He trained a lot for jumping, and the worry isn't that the enemy will hit you, but rather that they will hit your chute, so if we have a little Eldar with wings flying around at the speed of a small jet, then nothing's going to touch him so there's no point in trying to represent him on the TT as something that can be hit. The actual fliers come in on strafing runs and are flying beneath the radar (less than 500 ft) which is the reason you can hit them but you get reduced to BS 1 when shooting at them.
I'm supportive of the Hawks for several reasons:
1. Flying is fun and they don't really jump, they genuinely fly making them a very fast long-range attack infantry unit.
2. They can spot enemies from altitude. They would be a fantastic recon unit that close to no one can shoot down.
3. They focus on dropping grenade packs, making them into impromptu artillery, which is exceedingly useful for attacking over walls, establishing beachheads, etc. We don't have mortars, only lasers and monofilament webs, so I want more 'lob' in my armory.
4. Well-equipped Exarchs and skilled haywire users might actually be able to drop enemy aircraft.
There's a lot of strategic uses for this kind of troop unit that everyone misses entirely. They are, strategically, one of the most useful units I can envision that the TT just can't do justice to. If I'm still a commander and Hawks come around for the release, then an established squad of Hawks are going to be my tactical bread and butter.
Spiders aren't 'jump' infantry to me. They're shock troops, warping in from short range, blasting heavy infantry with monofilaments and falling back through the warp as necessary. They move quickly and they're good for assaulting heavy targets but they just don't have the same versatility. The mechanic in-game will likely restrict spiders to jumping in visual range or a small map, greatly hindering their perceived potential.
I am vying for the Hawks. They would make an Autarch happy.
I can't agree at all I'm afraid and what's worse my reasons are entirely based on their tactical uses.
Regardless of what you can imagine regarding height and speed of their jumps Hawks are mainly suited for two roles.
Light harassment- Approaching close enough to the enemy lines to fire and drop grenades before retreating, hoping not to get shot down in the process.
Anti-Vehicle - Attempting to get close enough to a vehicle to drop it (with the same vulnerability issues as the above).
In both of these roles the fact that they are a weak unit in terms of armor and can be seen approaching by the enemy means that they will always be a known quantity and something that the enemy feels comfortable responding to as they are easily and directly countered by small arms fire.
As such they will be relegated to nibbling away at the outskirts of an enemy army, which may be an effective tactic to whittle them down over time or to punish an undisciplined enemy force that has become spread out leaving key assets unguarded, but it lacks the sudden decisive impact a good commander would want, especially against a prepared enemy emplacement since attrition suffered approaching their targets will hugely reduce their impact once they get there.
Spiders on the other hand (while certainly easy to counter) are an unknown quantity and their sudden appearance behind enemy lines can be used to throw the enemies plans into disarray and take out key assets both of which open a window of opportunity that the larger force can take advantage of.
You want to launch a heavy assault on a fortification but they have too many heavy weapon troopers that are serving as a hard counter to your linebreaker units, the tanks, wraithlords and wraithguard.
Hawks are next to useless in this circumstance since they get shot down too easily as they move into range and can't reliably deliver their payloads.
Warp Spiders however could appear en-masse among their heavy troops to sow confusion right where it counts the most. They will hopefully kill some, but more importantly the threat they pose will tie the rest up long enough for your heavy assault to get into range.
It's this combination of surprise, durability and reliability that makes Warp Spiders tactically superior in a well planned assault - in my opinion at least.