Dire avenger is a basic class. If the ork shoota in EC is from a superior kind than the vanilla one, why not the same principle could not apply to guardsmen, most specially in this case stormtroopers, etc...

now you just going overboard, that not remotely the same and you are a single view person that reads 1 codex and thinks that is all fluff you need. not typin, and i urge everyone else to start ignorin this thread, and force this guy to just talk to himself in it and no one will listen. Mod will remove if he starts self bumpin so he can feel important again

Apparently some Ork players don't like to be reminded that they're the beneficiaries of exactly the kind of "lore-bending" that they're arguing against for IG.

As if a Shoota Boy would really fare any better against an SM than a Guardsman.

I really hope the aptly named "Biker Troll" actually keeps his promise to stop posting though, the thread is much better off without him.

A lot of people here are also ignoring that there are many ways for game mechanics to simulate a numerical advantage without actually having to put more players on one team. Respawn rates, resource systems, and force multipliers can always create an illusion of having more Guardsmen than players. Bots are an optional brute-force solution, and there are much more elegant ways to implement them than chaining them to a PC's ankles.

A very easy way to think around the "lore" objections is that instead of distorting the power levels, the events in the game make more sense if the body count is distorted: if the number of deployed Marines is wrong, you easily explain away "weaker factions beating Marines without huge numbers" (which applies to more than IG, it applies to... damn near everybody if you ascribe to Ward's vision of SMs), and "ten billion dead Marines within a year of launch" at the same time.

Or you can just not care, because like I said we're going to have billions of dead Space Marines within a year of launch, and I have a distinct feeling that nobody will be asking for their chapter to go extinct to satisfy the lore. Even though I would love it if bE put a real-time count of total casualties somewhere on their website, just to drive that point home.

They would.

Like, by a ton, i'm even one of those people who argued that Orks being stronger then individual Astartes is a bit lore bending but Orks are a species genetically engineered for war, it's not even a comparison.

That is true, Orks are genetically breeded for war, but they aren't nearly as smart as a normal IG-soldier. It is not just about the strenght, it's about the intellectual abilities too - like tactical movement, combat mechanics etc. - and if I remember "Warhammer 40.000 Space Marine" correctly, I've killed dozens of Orcs as an Astartes.

I would compare an average Ork with an average Guardsmen (strength = intelligence (e. g.:to avoid a strong attack from an Ork)

Space Marine isn't....exactly the best place to go for lore information.

Remember one of the game mechanics involves finding a holy Space Marine relic in a imperial shrine part of the planets sewer system. Orks are a brutally cunning species, and more then a few people have died from underestimating their intelligence.

....Still a thousand times better then DoW though I guess.

Mkoll of the Tanith out stealthed a Haemonculus.

The Dark Eldar thought he had the drop him only to find his position, at which point he heard Mkoll say he was good... From right behind him!
Mkoll did say that he was better though, which were the last words the Haemonculus ever heard.

My point is even though a Raven Guard has stealth in his genes and geneseed, there is always going to be someone better than them, even if it's only on the day they meet.
And the individual who is better can be from any faction, including the IG.

You're missing the part where their strategy for fighting that war relies on multiplying like fungus, as well as missing where a Boy stands on the totem pole. Ork boyz are piss poor shots and their tough hide is rendered moot by their complete lack of armor. Canonically, when Guardsmen fight Orks the Guardsmen are expected to be *outnumbered*, and win because charging an IG gun line is a really poor life choice.

Tyranids are hyper-evolved for war, doesn't help a Hormagaunt much when it gets shot in the face.

We're giving Orks the exact same boost that is being proposed for IG, just with a different, Orky flavor: we're up-gearing and up-statting them massively. We're promoting Boyz to Nobz and Nobz to Bosses. But people forget that because people like to rationalize the status quo and pretend it's always been that way. Not a criticism, just human nature.

I've been around here long enough to remember "5 orks to 1 space marine". I've watched this forum's perception of Orks shift after that was tossed out, specifically to rationalize the new status quo. If we introduced IG over their objections here, within a year these same people would be rationalizing Guardsmen the same way. Probably starting with "well they're not ordinary guardsmen" and ending with "so it's close enough". Human nature.

They will vehemently deny that they'd ever do a thing like that today of course. Because the way things are today is how they've always been, always will be, and always should be. We joke about Eastasia, but people accidentally Orwell themselves every day. The status quo bias is a funny thing. Human nature.

And remember, this isn't a nude boxing contest. We can still make charging an IG gun line a really poor life choice, along with all the other things that make us love (or their opponents hate) that faction so much.

We're not 'up stating' orks, as you said yourself Orks have a naturally tough hide besides a number of other genetic modifications that make them strong, the addition of equipment is what pushes them above the cannon fodder that compose the vast majority of an Ork WAAAAAAAGH, and yes being hyper evolved for war has quite a few perks, for example it can survive having it's arm ripped off without much medical attention and it's that same principle that allows it to take bolter shells when combined with above average equipment.

The same cannot be said for a human, if a bolter shell penetrates your torso in the IG...well you just drop dead, and unlike IG what pieces of armor an Ork CAN be equipped with can be as durable as Space Marine, or even terminator, armor.

There is no rationalization for why an Imperial Guardsman can suddenly eat a bolter shell and not only live but keep fighting after.

Unless the Imperial Guard made seven billion clones of Sebastian Yarrick that we haven't heard about, I don't see them making it in game in any way that makes sense soon.

Edit: And believe me, i'd want Imperial Guard. You know why? Because it'd open the way for the Lost and the Damned and I know more then a few people(Especially those frustrated by the lack of gender options.) who would REALLY like to play a Chaos Cultist, but at the moment it's just not feasible to me, not without some major changes to fluff that would require a big stamp of approval from GW to pass.

It's called "carapace armor can stop a bolter shell about half the time". Ork Shootas have worse armor pen characteristics than bolters, so in a fight against Orks the armor will be even more useful. You still seem to be making the assumption that Guardsmen go into battle naked and unarmed. A hit square on the chest will knock you flat on your ass and break some ribs even if the armor stops it, but hey video games never simulate that part and this isn't a milsim anyway (I would have thought the regenerating shield-armor would give that away). Since we're not using an RNG based armor pen system, they can just get enough HP to assume they get lucky three or four times for the same reason the .50 cal usually needs two hits to kill in Battlefield games: HP inflation. A little up-gearing and hand-waving can go a long way.

In fact, everyone in this game is already getting about 2-3x the HP they "should" have, because people whined about TTK early in the design phase. So it's not too much of a stretch at all in the context of the game. So if a Guardsman with carapace should normally go down around the 2nd hit, in this game's HP scale that translates to somewhere around 4-6 hits. A little squishy but pretty OK, because they're supposed to be squishy.

If you don't think carapace armor should remotely capable of resisting a bolter, well, not my problem. You can petition GW to nerf it if you like.

Also, I think Cultists would be a great way to introduce Daemons. After all, that explains who summoned them and they can fill gaps in each others' arsenals. If the daemon prince or whatever in charge of them is the uncooperative type (or Khornate) they even have an easy excuse to fight against the CSM when they want to, though they'd probably be placed so their primary rivals are IG and Tau or Eldar.

A big problem a lot of people are having is that they're trying to directly port their perception of IG from background characters in Space Marine-centric books, without considering how other games handle them or what changes this game makes across the board. Implementing IG is a lot easier when you look at the big picture and approach it from a game design perspective.