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Mistakes have been made.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Zael, Aug 21, 2018.

  1. Zael Zael Well-Known Member

    1.
    The first mistake by Nathan was to use the same top-down approach that Miguel used. Instead of building a functioning core-system and expanding from that, the plan was to develop several big features and then to work backwards from that. Mixing melee and shooting, Open-world, Terminators, PvPvE, player-controlled Carnifexes, NPC Warhound Titans, Tau, Adeptus Mechanicus, a campaign-system based on unlocking territories, an ongoing background-story written by Graham McNeill that reacts to what is happening inside the game...

    Every single one of these items would have been ambitious enough. But instead of focusing on getting something basic finished and then building on that, they wasted their time, our money, our patience, our trust with projects that were way out of their league, with wild ideas they just tossed around because they felt like it.

    * Because you can create the best game in the world and it will work out exactly as you planned all along. That's how it works. (Oh, wait, No. At F2P-launch Nathan chastised us for not knowing that game-development is trial and error and that you never know beforehand what will work and what will not. Maybe 2017-Nathan would like to have a word with 2016-Nathan.)

    * Because there is no way that creating a hype-bubble could backfire. Hype-bubbles don't pop. So let's bullshit some more about what will be in the game or what we want to be in the game or what we wish to be in the game. Our fans and potential customers will be able to foresee the future and to know when and when not to hold us to our promises.
    There is no way that promising more and more and more could eventually backfire.



    2.
    The second mistake by the developers was not to plan the game thoroughly from the very beginning. The developers made countless mistakes in the beginning that eventually caused problems or would have caused problems.

    * Any game is at the core mathematics. Designing a game means developing a system that controls how random chance influences the outcome and how player-skill (intelligence, reflexes, precision, social interaction...) influences the outcome. Eternal Crusade is badly designed in that it allows for too much difference between players in terms of skill. In a well-designed game, a bad player would at least have a chance to defeat a good player. In Eternal Crusade he does not. That's why we had/have Eldar OP, Chaos OP, D-Bash OP, Bolterama, Nade Tricks and Rollex.

    * Nathan's plan was to go from lobby-shooter to open-world by simply making the map bigger. Such idiocy is shocking and it is even more shocking that nobody at BE told him that it is idiocy.
    Why is it idiocy?
    Because by increasing the map-size you increase travel-times, which means the players additionally need a system to get around faster than on foot. It means that with the ressources of a bigger map and more players available, battles will be locally even more one-sided, leading to murderballing, frustration and balancing-problems when coordinated and uncoordinated players face off. It would totally change the supply-system, because what do you do if you run out of ammo or health in the middle of nowhere?
    Going from lobby-shooter to open-world would have radically altered the meta and it would have meant a radical rebalancing of everything that had been done up to this point.
    And I will let you in on a secret: The times for radical rebalancing are before launch.

    * The same problem exists with the maps we have. Nathan has never ruled out that other troop-types would be added in the future. Never. But take a contemporary map and try to imagine what the game would be like with dreadnoughts, bikes, Terminators and flyers were added.
    For example, when the first map came out in Closed-Alpha, Olipsis, bikes were still planned. And yet the map was not in the slightest suitable for a warfare containing bikes. The same can be said about other maps and other troop-types.
    The maps were never designed for anything else but infantry and tanks. Any addition of any troop-type means that the developers have to redesign all of the maps.
    (I even faintly remember an offhand-remark from one of the Twitches that one of the problems with Terminators is that they have problems walking through bottlenecks.)
    And I will let you in on a secret: The times for radical redesigns of all the maps are before launch.

    * As we, the player-community, had no idea what is and what is not feasible in terms of content, we went wild with suggestions and plans and discussions. At no point did anybody tell us to not expect this or to not expect that. A competent Community-Manager would have known the outcome. The same outcome as over in Mechwarrior Online. Over there, the player-community also had gone wild with enthusiasm on the forums and nobody told them what to expect and what not to expect. And when the game launched and reality set in, a shit-storm of disappointment set in that almost killed the game in the craddle.
    But on the plus-side, Katie got to learn her Community-Manager skills by starting with zero job-experience for the most ambitious game-development ever.



    3.
    The third mistake of the game-developers was to waste time and money (and patience and trust) by starting and then not finishing projects.
    What happened to the Xbox- and PS4-versions of Eternal Crusade? The developers did some coding on that and then abandoned it. How much was wasted on that?
    What happened to map-modifiers?
    What happened to Warlords and Warcouncils?
    What happened to the vehicle-map?
    What happened to the new vehicle-models?
    What happened to sub-subfactions?
    What happened to "campaigns within campaigns within campaigns"?
    Instead of finishing a project to the point where you can announce "Mission Accomplished" and publish something half-baked (which they had no scruples to do with other parts of the game, such as the abominable world-map or the abominable Possessed), the developers have their shelves full of unfinished stuff.
    Anybody with any management-experience will tell you that this is bad. Really bad. But somehow BE and Nathan and the developers saw no problem in doing it anyways.
  2. The Alternative was to not release a game at all.
    I am no expert on this one, but i think they have some legal liability to at least ship something, otherwise they wouldn't have bothered to do it at all. So they had to deliver. Be it as broken and incomplete as it is, but somewhere on some contract a checkbox has got it's mark and that's what counts
    Katitof, KharnVarus and LOBOTRONUS like this.
  3. Viking Vking Arkhona Vanguard

    This thread is a mistake
    Sumshine, Atsidas, Arafael and 6 others like this.
  4. MEGANOB MADNESS TheMadnesss Arkhona Vanguard

    locked in 10....9....8...7...6...
  5. Kharn KharnVarus Eternal Battles Moderator

    That's what everyone should know by now, why does this have to be mentioned again... Oh wait...
  6. Because we have nothing new to discuss, so we tread the same steps hundereds have taken before us again and again. Such is the art of undeath
  7. Kharn KharnVarus Eternal Battles Moderator

    Why don't we discuss how impossible Nathan's idea to find a new publisher sounds?

    I mean I'm not expert but last time I checked, nobody wants to fund a game that's in this state, let alone has 1 guy working on it.
    DrDooManiC likes this.
  8. While uncertain, it would be the only way to save the game i think.
    If the Dev-Team would grow in number again, more updates and fixes could be brought through, which would in turn bring some old players back, populate the servers so new players also find someone to play with.

    But as you said, if i would offer you to buy a ship full of toxic waste, that is on fire and sinking at the same time, with people jumping aboard all the time, would you trust me that it would be promising to invenst on it?

    The only thing that i think EC has going for it is the 40K licence for a game like this.
    And the fact that 40k People pay a lot of money for their hobby.
    Someone would have to A) See the potential, B) trust bE to make it worth their money

    Not ready yet for another round of hopes and dreams, but go for it if you feel like? :D
  9. Zael Zael Well-Known Member

    The alternative was to thoroughly plan the game before you start programming it.
    The alternative was to get the basics done before you start planning how to do an open-world PvPvE campaign with 6 races.
    The alternative was to manage the enthusiasm and expectations of the community by properly communicating with them.
  10. Zael Zael Well-Known Member

    Is this hell?

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