Revision 11 is now up :: https://1drv.ms/f/s!AgP7gocgiKP-ampkDr17tABOvE0 Reworked the "All faction stats" some more, pulled the armor lists out to their factions. Eldar Concept is UP !! i broke their classes down into 2 groups the lighter armored and more heavily armored. I also added Runes to their defensive gear allowing for more customization. Lighter classes meant for harassment will have access to defensive field "simulating" their enhanced agility by soaking a shot here or there. and pushing a "harassment" playstyle ... they should easily win short trades but may want to shy away from extended damage trading .... even if they are ahead and down their victim they may take a lot of damage that is not as easily healed anymore. Banshee ideas and SS ideas are down at the bottom. the DR and these two will balance much like the other races "tougher" units. and will be able to get to topcap toughness due to their higher starting location and available equipment options.
Also @Oveur Still dont have the response for the ADS//SIPS// section are those multiplication factors to the relevant stats ? or are those the flat numbers for firing in that mode ? in other words :: if i fire in Aim down the sights is my firing stats :: Exactly the ADS listed stats ? OR The base accumulation numbers TIMES the ADS number (essentially a reduction multiplier) ?
@Delgear You are wasting your time at this point. The effort you put in is commendable, but it wont work out. From my personal point of view, you are still making a lot of mistakes. You still didn't understand big parts of the spreadsheet and how its values will translate into the game. You stick to ideas like your Howling Banshee rework that literally every Banshee player on the forums told you is broken and wont work. You are increasing the general TTK by 2-fold flat without making the fights more interesting. You still use your 'simplified' values without understanding that these 0.0xxx-changes are what makes the greatest impact on true balance. But that is subjective. In the end your proposal could still be great, regardless of what I say or anyone else, only a test-run on UAT could really prove that conclusively either way. The main problem is that you have long moved away from the point of this exercise. I agree that we will have to include baseline stats and, in the long run, also Wargear, Mods and Trinkets. But the mechanical reworks, like your change to Ailments, are something that is simply not, never, ever! going to happen. The problem is not that the devs don't know, how to balance a game. The problem is re-balancing the game with the resources they have. Changing the stats of a weapon or a class is easy. They could launch a new version of that on UAT every day. But changing or creating mechanics is simply far beyond the scope of what is possible at this time. As long as you include really any kind of new item, mechanical rework, animation change, your proposal will not be in consideration, as the entire point of this exercise was to work only in stats.
First and foremost, two fold is from half a second ish to 1. something depending on weapon. So despite the idea that i am "drastically increasing ttk" it is well within the context of the excercise and a more "class based" shooter. Secondly the banshee rework was only really ever contested by you. no one else really put anything down. you are assuming your vote is everyone's vote. Thirdly ? how are the banshees mechanics working out for us ? how popular is it as a class ? how long is too long to use the same fail mechanics ? stop staring into the iceberg, the banshee MUST change, if you dont like my suggestion make your own and post it. I get a lot of flak on here but i dont see a heck lot of the rest of you putting in any real work now do i ? Any effort you spend tends to be heckling from the sidelines like the old dudes on the muppets. NAME the stats ... CALL OUT THE MISTAKES so we can debate them, fix them, etc. The Aoe size and effect of the banshees scream is just numbers, theres no need to really change the A/V of it. i mean it might be a good idea but it isn't immediately necessary. Fourthly, I have asked numerous times on this very thread how the ADS SIPS and hip section work, and have received 0 response. I cant make any sensible changes to that until i know how the numbers will be used. Fifthly .... I don't see the problem with implementing or concepting MORE than the excersise asks for as long as i still did WHAT the exercise asked for which i did, this is all extra embelleshment and filling out of concept a "future plan" that could be used. Sixth, I don't think anyone believes for one second a couple of weapon restats will completely change the way the game is played outside maybe the stat changes i made to "Artillery bombardment weapons". Most of what i did wasn't meant to specifically instantly balance the weapons it was to simplify their balancing by eliminating RNG, and multiplicative assets form their calculation as much as possible. To make them more acutely tune-able and adjustable. and more developer responsive. Also to fit them into a risk/reward framework, The banshees scream, potentially changing how suppression works all add agency, and skill is rewarded more instead of relying on RNG both players can intuitively SEE if an action will be rewarded or optimal, they will know for sure they are fighting under a disadvantage and how much and they will have to choose and gauge if their skill gap is enough to win, escape etc. or if its time to "take your pound of flesh on the way down". Someone with a steady hand is still rewarded for firing into the banshee scream, or under suppression, and can potentially win VS an enemy with worse aim or at least inflict some damage on their assailant. That isn't dependent on a random shot going on or off target AKA RNG AKA NO AGENCY. If you don't think i made those combats more interesting, well theres nothing i can do about that ... if you think holding your weapon on target with no real challenge to keep it there is more interesting than the gun jumping from recoil (like it should) and requiring you and your opponent to constantly re-aim to get your dps .... then i cant help you if you think 0 mechanics are better then recoil mechanics ... you are a lost cause and not my target audience. If you want simple RNG to decide if you landed bullets or not, you are not my target audience .... you dont get it. you don't understand agency at all and i cant explain it any better than i already have. go watch a video on agency from extra credits.
You don't have to care about what I think. I think you have the best intentions but only end up confusing yourself and everyone else due to a lack of structure (This is a main focus of my Software Engineering lecture and I'm starting to figure out, why). If I break down all you posted here and elsewhere, you always have a very good and likeable concept of what you want to achieve and a bunch of random ideas that will not help you accomplish that goal in any way. (I believe I mentioned Non-Sequitor) But I'm getting distracted: The point I was (and am) trying to make is that none of your ideas, how awesome they might be, is going to mean anything if the Dev-team cant implement them. Again: If this was about making the game better, they would not be asking us, they would just do it! This is about making the game better without having to allocate any resources towards it. We do the crafting, all they have to do is copy-paste the new stats. But if you suddenly request engineering to be done, its getting a lot more complicated really fast. Imagine you are applying for a job. It doesn't matter, how qualified you are or how much work you put into your application and CV. If they requested specific standards and information from you and you didn't deliver, they will not even read the rest of it, its going straight into the trashcan.
the copy and paste tool isn't all or nothing and the part they asked me to edit is up front. Im pretty sure they can handle that. The only unchanged data i intended to change, is still waiting on an answer that apparently will never come from anyone.
As far as "Can they balance a shooter ?". This is a complicated question. the short answer is no probably not. I mean look at the SC .... its hipfire ... it shouldn't even be in the game like that, or the fact that recoil on some guns doesn't move the crosshair. our present pop is a pretty good indicator when most complaints are about game balance and game play that they don't. BUUUUUT ..... Lets be fair though and real.... should they be able to ? The majority of this devstaff was hired for an MMORPG. look at their damage systems. they are designed for infinite and accelerant stat scaling. I'm quite convinced this is more a fish out of water problem than many think. There is piles of RNG something that while still bad game design in a lot of ways or overly used is a LOT more at home in a standard MMORPG like a WoW or something or a turn based strategy tactical game. I think they are doing the best that they can with the mismatched experiences and systems handed down to them from the project start. But i think a ravenous shooter fanbase has a better shot at balancing a shooter than a block of RPG makers. Its not like bE itself is on a strong footing even non considering the team. They aren't at the head of a lot of large successful shooter franchises. This genre is new to them and they are not experienced at it, however with a shooter fanbase behind them pushing for agency and balance they could absolutely balance the game. I think this is quite honestly one of the most brilliant things they've ever done. to open up the question to the community. I don't intend to waste the opportunity. If they throw out my suggestion that is their choice. It doesn't however in any way diminish my work, and how it adheres to solid game mechanics, and good development strategy. You can't will them all and while i hope i win this one ... if i dont and the game tanks because none of the other (lol other submissions) submissions saved it either. Then i'll just move on ... not necessarily because i want to but when the pop dies ... theres no one to play against any more ... i like the game like it is now ... even with all its faults i enjoy playing it. I can unlike you Rheeva separate that from what it takes to keep the game alive, The game needs a metagame that will wrangle people in on its own. it needs to be more newbie friendly .... even if that dumbs the game down some for you and me..... its like i said earlier ... look around the table ... no one wants to play with us anymore because the game we have been asking for and have since 1.3 does not sell and it does not retain players. That requires the game to CHANGE to succeed .... and if the game CHANGES likely things you don't want to change will have to change for necessity because no one likes them the way they are. I dont have a problem with a LC blowing me up without a red laser sight .... but the community at large does they absolutely HATED it without that laser sight and a decent charge time.Sometimes you have to let your own personal bias go for the good of the game. You are absolutely right ... they might just trash all the work i put in ... that's development cupcake, it will be disappointing but i'll get over it like i have every time since i joined they haven't heard a word i've said or if they do they keep quiet about it. However, if you want to talk about a CV, what about a large scale development idea like this. It shows i have the capacity to sculpt and scope like a gamedev. It shows i can have a vision and back my vision up with solid game development theory and design decisions, not just a desire for things to be "my way". I don't fault the devs at all ... they got hiked a play and then told mid play its an audible .... they are just doing the best they can with what they have ... and for once unlike a lot of other studios they looked out at the crowd and said "what do you want to see and why ?" you want to talk about some smart developing .... that's some smart developing. If they take their ideas from the fans asking to watch the show there's a better chance they are going to pick something those fans actually want. That doesn't mean we get all our dreams come true. Doesn't mean they will use anything i posted but at least they asked and in theory admitted we might be able to help them design what we want to see. The vast majority of changes i have asked for while not specifically in the original spread amount to changing where pointers point, maybe changing a math formula, to just numbers on a stat sheet. The AV weapons were supposedly already under construction for vehicle customization ... if we are lucky and the system for customizing it ourselves isnt in yet but the assets are laying around ..... bingo paydirt. "Engineering" is required for reanimation, for interactions with hardware and software, not for the changing of math formulas, or stat values. UE4 has a lot of these values built in in its shooter tools am i right ?
To understand where i want to go and why im going to break it down for you. This is what our present game state does Wrong :: -Agency is way too Low. way too much in this game is decided by who bushwacked who and RNG. -there are no "moments of power" that a player has to work around. -There is no TPS Metagame cycle trench<cover deny<flush<trench and the game is supposedly a TPS. -There are not enough multiple Meta competitive loadouts. they dont all have to be viable competative but more of them do. -There is very little meaningful choice. -They don't have the proper scale of armors effectiveness vs weapons effectiveness. This what i think the game has RIGHT :: -Aesthetic ... not sure i agree with pulling punches for pegi 16 but otherwise it definitely "Feels WH" -Accuracy ... Most classes are accurate to fluff as far as what armies have what classes and what there general roles are. -Vehicles .... they might not be implemented great but they are an opportunity to separate us from the crowd. -Fortress maps .... again separates us from the norm if implemented better could easily be a "selling point". -Scale ... I think they were right to dial back huge team sizes ... after a certain point its just going to become too crowded. -Change from MMORPG to MMO TPS shooter .... i think this was a necessary choice not so much a desired choice, but we just didn't have the resources to make something of that magnitude. I applaud the realism invoked here i think if this decision hadn't been made we wouldn't even be here discussing the possible paths the game could take it would already be dead. And yeah it would be AMAZING if i could use the UAT to craft weapons and such so i could test my numbers, but i can't they have to thats the entire reason i gave the concept videos ... because without being able to test the context i cant verify the numbers work the way i understand them. If i had that access i could have verified the ADS SIPS and hip by now myself. but theres a mutlitude of ways they could have implemented them. I also could have tested my recoil numbers as well .. i'm only going on the "Assumption" that recoil is in degrees/shot, and that is solely based on observation ..... i could be completely wrong. i dont have the recoil//spread // accuracy formulas ...im just guessing based on how they act in relation to other guns with similar but different values for them. Its all reasoned extrapolation and educated conjecture, nor why the firing pattern bobs in the way it does, but that is going to be a vector number from CoS somewhere, and that number is quite editable. I cant say i could cleanly tell you why the stalker more or less stays in the same place (retical) despite the gun and where you are firing spiking up but on other guns like the heavy bolter it moves back and forth with the recoil. Those have to be hidden variances, or numbers, or they are in that chart but not annotated well, or its hitting a math formula we cant see on that spreadsheet. If it was me in the beginning designing, i would have started with recoil and started with a smooth vector in path of least resistance for each weapon .... once i got the weapon scrolling across and up or whatever in the right direction i would have tuned the mouse physics on resistance so you could slow and then turn the vector around but never stop it. then add in vector programming for if the gun is already moving when you start firing so the the vector follows the already existing motion. In general spread and accuracy are cop outs .... yeah i realize in the real world bullets go south sometimes ... but this is a game people hate their skill being nerfed or lack of skill being rewarded by luck. i wouldn't at base put spread or accuracy in the game .... If you want a gun to be more accurate give it longer falloffs, and less falloff damage drop ... making it more effective from long range.Bullets should more or less go where you fire them ... it should just be hard to fire them where you want to fire them consistently. Just like my take on the scream, yeah the banshee technically causes ear bleeding and actual physical damage(im not opposed to it doing damage on hit either) but its primary purpose in the lore is to debilitate your opponent and make it hard for them to fight back. its supposed to partial paralyze and discombobulate the nerves ... well how fun is it for the guy hit with the scream ? if he cant move ? or he cant shoot back ? Its garbage .... sometimes in a game what matters is the experience. by swapping suppression // the banshees scream to damage down debuffs you return agency to both players they can both take ANY action ..... some are smarter than others, but you never know every once in a while the stupidest solution actually works because one player wasnt expecting it. It also allows the scream to fall more in line with the banshees competing units in the game .... as i aid the GA and JPA have really easy engagement tools, and they can flip those engagement tools and disengage at will as well. the banshee ... not so much her scream at present will rarely affect more than 1-2 targets and even if it does the RNG it inflicts isnt really that impactful at close range most of the actions are restricted .... that banshee has bonus damage but that doesnt close the distance between the banshee and thier opponent who is now quite aware they are present ....ruining that element of surprise or breaking up the first to second swing tempo and offering them an opportunity to turn around ..... the scream presently on the banshee is counter intuitive ... that is why it doesn't work. Its not rocket science ... adding damage and force to your hits against a debuffed target does nothing you still have the same incoming enemy DPS, and likely from more than one enemy if you use it to initiate ... at that close a range accuracy and spread penalties aren't really that likely to miss, and lets be real if we increased spread and accuracy to the point that it would be an issue anyone hit by the banshees scream couldn't shoot at all.... therefore robbing agency from those with good marksmanship. There is no way to leave the banshees scream as it is and have it give agency to both players in its present state it has to take agency from one player to give it to the other .... either the damage bonus is high enough to facilitate a rifle headshot ttk, or the spread and accuracy have to be so bad that the ranged ttk equalizes with the melee dps, and even then any nearby passer will not be affected. If you strip these things the banshee becomes too weak without a relevant replacement. If you re-evaluate the same scenario with a damage down debuff everything fits nicely into Agency ... the victim can shoot, the banshee can choose to engage or disengage much like a GA or JPA can, the banshee has a gap closer that balances DPS without removing agency from the victim. The same goes for suppression ... but im still on the fence about whether i like that or not .... i really dont like it in its current state because number one suppression is exploit avoidable for some classes and weapons .... how fair is that ? but at the same time its also a death sentence for other class // weapon combinations that dont have a scope is that fair ? Im not particularly wild about it causing a damage down debuff but it HAS to do something more fair with more agency ...... theres other options like :: Movement speed down presently implemented recoil // spread // accuracy penalty Inability to walk towards or into the cone of fire (really hard to implement and again agency ...) Can't leave cover ... (presently most dont really use much cover besides taller than self cover). Suppression is just a snitch to implement any other way .... i mean we can .... we could leave it the way it is ... but it still feels like a bad game mechanic that is basically RNG limiting your skill and DPS.
that doesnt make any sense ... so your first aim down the sights shot has the same accuracy as hip, and as you fir more it increases by sips on top ? unless accuracy is inverse proportional. if that were true wouldn't ADS be less accurate than hip ? What impact does ADS have on recoil ? spread ? im assuming none ? maybe but recoil could be reduced by shouldering the weapon ... and probably should. In practice in game ADS increases accuracy and reduces spread, recoil is so negligible on most weapons its hard to tell if it has an impact. EDIT :: So if that is true then ADS is the "Set base accuracy" for ADS mode, it is not a modifier, and sips accumulates it to determine the spread pattern ? In otherwords "Base accuracy" does not affect it. nor does "Base spread", if it was me i probably would have gone with multipliers ... so updates to the guns base accuracy or spread propagate naturally to the other parts of the weapon .... but it does the same thing just takes more work to fix.
