Background Image

How I know Eldar speed is non existent.

Discussion in 'Eldar' started by G0dlyN00b, Apr 24, 2017.

  1. Slird Slird Active Member

    You also have enhance to compensate this.
  2. Safreadis Safreadis Arkhona Vanguard

    Three possibilities:
    -Lag: You finished cating Embolden at the exact moment the axe hit you, and hence Embolden applied to your agonising corpse, therefore healing you while down.
    -Display bug: You were being healed by a friendly warlock whose Rejuvenating stream wasn't visible on your end (happens some times)
    - Another warlock nearby: popped Embolden next to you after you died and you didn't notice it, being down and all...

    But this is an absolute certainty that Embolden does NOT remain after you get downed, just like Boon of Change (Tzeentch healing speel, performs exactly like Embolden).
    And LSM have Servo-skull and Adrenaline Vial to buff that up too, in stronger proportions (but shorter and more static range).
    We can carry on for a looooong time with these arguments, both side being extremely deaf to what the other has to say.

    Iirc, the point of this is "Is the Eldar bonus speed worth all the 33% EHP reduction?" Given everyone get smart pistols (aka aimbots), given the speed buff is 23% in average, and anyone who is a decent shot isn't bothered by Eldar smaller frame, I'd say no, especially considering the TTK across factions aren't equal, and the fact that the other factions have much easier access to tankier wargear.
    Dragonkindred and Maensith like this.
  3. Doge TheAngryDoge Active Member

    Can dismiss 2 and 3, no other locks in the area. Lag shenanigans is not outside the realm of possibility as I've seen enough other ones.

    Eldar do get shafted in some areas like after checking gold armor for them when I got home other other day, they're 100 lp less for 10 less toughness which is kinda crap as the other armors mathhammer out rather similar to their bonuses. They really should get the 30 Toughness on their gold everyone else does.

    Other big gripe I have as Eldar is the DA is the only "not a heavy weapon posted in a good spot" class I can consistently run out of ammo with due to the weapons rather inefficient ammo to kill ratio. Would really like to see them get another magazine or two of ammo capacity.
  4. Slird Slird Active Member

    So, you already forget? =) It is not clear win for someone. Both side have tools , but avoid of use them. You need to do something to disrupt enemies strategy: destroy skulls, stun warlock.
    Smart pistols is bad, but realy not good against good players, because headshots more effective. =) But I vote to remove this shit from game.

    Eldars smaller frame have his advantage at long distanse, because of recoil and bloom spot. So, ASC have the same efficiency as boltgun at long range because SM still catch all bullets. At short and mid distances ASC just better, because really easy to use. All other about TTK.
    So, TTK. Part of your EHP and damage already exist in warlocks buff. Right now TTK LSM/Eldar near equal IF enhance\surv(both) applied.
    As eldar like to say: try to adapt. It works both sides. I dont say "eldar don't have any problems", but rarely it will be EHP or "non-existence of speed advantage".
    Vishjenk likes this.
  5. 3dbocatt 3dferocity Active Member

    Are we still talking about speed being equal compensation for EHP? Crazy.

    I don't play only supremacy maps, but for those that do, 90% of your fighting takes place in cramped corridors, buildings and point rooms. Because those are the objectives of the game. When Eldar go to push, every Eldar in the room is putting the team push at a disadvantage with lower health total to soak bullets, while having their "speed advantage" negated by being packaged in tighter than sardines and just feeding the Heavy Bolter at the end of the hallway.

    Playing as marines or orks, sardines, lemmings, zerg the point strategy is a valid strategy and most of the time either gets you the cap or the interrupt. For Eldar, you have to split up, flank, move, and abuse your movement speed as much as possible to come at the enemy from all sides, and yet coming in a door, still die to an obnoxiously low number of bolter shots, respawn, run back, waste more time, lose the point, rinse and repeat.

    And no, adding Warlocks does not make Eldar "better" or "on par" because every other faction gets a force multiplier class. Eldar force multiplier brings them up to par with base marines/orks, while other factions multipliers make them much better than they were base/previously. What's the point of encouraging grouping up and teamplay with enhance or, Isha-forbid, protect? Enhance is best used as people drop out of the serpent together and then have the whole squad splinter off into smaller units that are much less effective at pushing hard defenses, but can at least function to some degree without stepping on each others toes.

    Defense on Fortress is mostly not moving. Here Eldar suffer at the camping game for lower EHP and having no long range weapon besides the Reaper Launcher. Attack isn't much different. With no long range weapons, Eldar are effectively reduced to suicide rushing Avengers, Scorpions and Hawks trying to get to grips with defenders at close range, usually being cut down by heavy weapons in door ways or by support in closer ranges because the speed buff is not enough to make up for such low HP to close the gap between heavy weapons nests. Ironically, the points Eldar should excel at where there is space to move about while still staying a cohesive unit, is just as lethal a kill zone.

    I was hoping beyond all hope that the introduction of the ranger would at least give Eldar some recourse on Fortress maps, if not even the maps that most of the playerbase plays on (since "Fortress game mode" is simply a disableable option in menus). I was okay with struggling on supremacy and having to abuse movement shenanigans and hit and run to cap/decap points all the time, as it is how Eldar in lore function and despite being boring as dung, it can win games. But Fortress mode is more thematic, if incongruent for Eldar and Orks, requires more strategy and tactics, and has more players and integration of armor into assault and it's the mode I enjoy more and I think would be more conducive to competitive matches and yet it's the mode that the faction I main are the worst at among the game types and the worst at among the factions.

    And yet even the ranger was taken from us.

    And Eldar are given yet another pointless close range combatant that won't live to see close range without stealth or wings and takes up a valuable veteran life, while providing nothing interesting or dynamic or meta-changing to the game and being an absolute insult to the fantasy of the Autarch, a peerless warrior that has mastered many many more forms of combat than any mon-keigh and, forgive the language, he's going to die like a bitch to bolter fire same as the rest of the Eldar. Everyone is sad they don't get their "marine/traitor power fantasy" and I don't have any sympathy anymore. Adding the Autarch as the watered down elites that we're getting collectively across all factions, is a joke. An absolute joke.

    I apologize for being so salty about this. The Autarch downgrade stings. A lot.

    I won't even bother with the "Push" type maps like Zedek and Maggon. I still enjoy playing those but they're the worst of both worlds for Eldar. Long open sightlines with no long range weapons to speak of and cramped close quarters point areas.
  6. Shiani Brujah Preacher

    That's not really the case, because in a good proportion of encounters you won't be fighting in isolation.

    It is very easy, and often required, to spunk a whole magazine of the ASC into a target to down them. Comparatively, even with poor firing you'd be hard-pressed to use 50% of even your basic Bolter Magazine killing a Dire Avenger.
    This means, before the DA can switch and kill the next target, they will have to reload. The player using the Bolter will not.

    If a DA is super-accurate and hits all headshots, they can kill 7 naked Space Marine tacticals before reloading. If a Space Marine is super-accurate and hits all headshots, he can kill 20 naked Dire Avengers before reloading.
    Bodyshots are half these numbers, rounded down to 3 in the case of the DA. Given the DA has a weapon with a higher firerate, their odds of hitting with every round when changing target are also lower. That's balanced by their misses being less costly, so that's mostly fine overall, but in the hands of a skilled player it's an inferior weapon by far.
    Eldritch, Dragonkindred and Faeruin like this.
  7. Slird Slird Active Member

    Mb I don't understand this part correctly, but haw it even linked to quote?
    Actually you can kill two marines without headshots. SM can kill 3 eldar with stock magazine size without headshots. If you are buffed, and LSM not buffed (or it is CSM without MoN) you can kill 3 of them without reloading.
    Usually "BigMag feature" required if you pray'n'spray to much... or it is just pug stomping. You need to have obviously better skill than your enemy for realising advantage of BigMag. As for me, it is not big part, but if you want this feature I will not say even a word against this - looks fair enough.
    Actually, 6 naked SM and 7 naked DA. I just calculate it for stock loadouts...
    Skilled player understands what actually will happen if Eldar get a boltgun (CQC,AP). Useless weapon for them. You can calculate this, with buff applied or without. Eldar will die even faster. Because it is not weapon advantage.
    Also, higher fire rate provide higher capability to effective hip fire. =)
  8. Shiani Brujah Preacher

    I'm not actually sure. I was reading something that made me think of this, but reading it back I can't see how it relates.
    Balls, I had the wrong magazine size on my spreadsheet. You are right enough. Then again, Eldar don't get magazine size increases, so it's still a reasonable comparison if you're looking at 'most enemies killed in a single magazine'. Which I wasn't, so I'm not claiming I wasn't wrong - I was.

    Anyway, it's three Marines, if the Marine doesn't have any Wargear. Is the regular Boltgun 40 bullets per magazine? Assuming it is, they get six kills on a naked DA.
    If you stick both in Gold armour, the numbers go to two Space Marines and five Dire Avengers.
  9. Slird Slird Active Member

    Regular boltgun have 30 bullets per magazine. Actualy, if both use gold armor it still 2 marines for 3 eldar for 1 magazine. But you need realise your Protect to win this. Actually, enother 10 toughness or 25 armor should be good for DA, but you will win near all trades in this case. =\
  10. Shiani Brujah Preacher

    Okay, with 30 bullets in the magazine it's five against a naked DA and three against one wearing Gold armour. Where are you getting your numbers?

    You win in nearly all trades where the Dire Avenger has a Warlock casting Protect and is up against a single Space Marine? Well, yes.

    What about a Warlock and a DA versus a Space Marine Tactical with a Servo Skull and an Apothecary with a survival vial?
    Niothewarlock and 3dferocity like this.

Share This Page