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Full Discussion of Eldar and Eldar Balance

Discussion in 'Eldar' started by Rheeva, May 4, 2018.

  1. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    Hey everyone ^^
    I am creating this thread to use as a general reference in all future debates regarding Eldar so I don't have to keep repeating myself. I may take a few days to do so, even longer with editing and polishing.
    This is essentially a summary of everything we know, do not expect any new insights if you are familiar with the debate.
    I will use several posts to discuss everything, the structuring will be as follows:

    1) Introduction
    2) Overview of the faction
    3) History of the faction
    4) Real balancing/design problems
    5) Imaginary balancing problems/PEBCAK
    6) Mathematical considerations
    7) Possible solutions and bad solutions
    8) TLDR/Summary
    9) QA

    I would like to point out that I already created a guide on how to effectively fight Eldar, as well as several, other guides you might find useful.
    However I might also give some advice in this thread.

    The one thing I can only recommend to everyone who struggles against Eldar is to try them out themselves. You might find you have a very easy time winning, because you are getting carried but what you really should pay attention to is how your team behaves and everyone works together.
    It truly has it's own beauty, unless of course you are on the wrong side of it.

    I would like to keep this non-hostile. You are free to ask questions or express reasonable, mathematically funded doubt. But please keep it civil and, more importantly, keep an open mind.
  2. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    1) Introduction
    2) Overview of the faction
    3) History of the faction
    4) Real balancing/design problems
    5) Imaginary balancing problems/PEBCAK
    6) Mathematical considerations
    7) Possible solutions and bad solutions
    8) TLDR/Summary
    9) QA

    This is probably going to be the longest post, as I plan to make a quick rundown of every asset we have.
    If I refer to math, it is most likely drawn either from the EHP-calculator or Scream while dying.
    Every asset that is important (because commonly used) will be Bold.

    Dire Avenger
    The Dire Avenger is our Tactical Marine, actually it is half our Tactical Marine, as the Anti-Vehicle-options were moved to the Fire Dragon.
    Dire Avengers are colored blue and equipped with rifles, pistols, grenades and knives.
    As all Eldar, they possess 15% higher sprint and 33% higher running speed, in exchange for 50 health / 300LP. Their hitbox is slightly smaller, approximately 25% on the torso+arms, even less on the legs. The head has the same size.
    Furthermore, Dire Avengers also have an armor-disadvantage by less base armor and worse building-options. This advantage is compensated for by possessing higher DPS (we will get to that in a moment).
    Dire Avengers are now competitive to Tactical Marines and possibly exceed them in medium- or short ranged situations, even un-buffed. They are still slighly worse than Traitors.
    A 'perfect' Space Marine would still possess the edge and a Storm-Bolter could win the DPS-race.

    Avenger Shuriken Catapults and Twin-Linked Avenger Shuriken Catapults

    These are our tactical rifles for the Dire Avenger. They generally resemble the Boltgun and Stormbolter respectively, although the TLASC is more of a straight upgrade than a sidegrade/downgrade.
    Both weapons feature respectively higher DPS. All in all, after the Bolter-nerf, the Time-to-kill for an Avenger vs Tactical is slightly(but barely) longer than for a Tactical to kill an Avenger, assuming they both use their best options respectively (TLASC and Boltgun)
    Eldar weapons are stronger at close range and worse at extended- and long. They have less modding-options and worse ammo-efficiency. As of the Boltgun-rework, the ASC is more accurate in hipfire. Recoil- or ADS-spread does not matter for either weapon.
    The high rate of fire makes it less punishing to miss and easier to hit moving targets.
    The unique variants are not worth mentioning.

    Shuriken Pistols
    They lately received a small upgrade but are still not very good. They behave similar to the Bolt-pistol as the ASC does to the Boltgun: higher RoF, higher DPS, less DPP, less DPC.
    They are decent sidearms but you will see them put to use much less than the Bolt-pistol, especially the smart-variant pales in comparison.
    All in all, Eldar might use them to finish off low-health targets but not for actual combat. They resemble a low clip-size Zip-Slugga from Orks.

    Fusion Pistols
    Even after the nerf still very fun sidearms, not very high DPS and a warm-up but accurate, reliable and can bypass shields, also the visual noise is great.
    A single dodge is always enough to prevent lethal damage from this weapon.
    You will find those mostly on Scorpions as they often have leftover LP and Poison+Fire is a mean synergy that deals a ton more damage than it should.
    Otherwise the high LP-cost exclude them from most builds. If an Eldar has a Fusion-pistol, they will use them whenever they can.

    Our only Grenade-option. They are essentially Krak-grenades but cheaper and with less damage. An elite can survive a hit, everyone else will at least go into downstate.
    They stick to targets (roll to unstick) and explode a bit faster with less range (about 4m radius).
    They are less spammable and not as great to airburst as normal Frag-Grenades, however they are great to quickly attach to enemies in melee or downed enemies being ressed.

    Ceremonial Knives
    Combat knives with a bit of extra damage. Nothing important here.

    Fire Dragons
    Our AV-class. Can only equip Fusion-guns as primary, very solid stats with good toughness-options.
    As all Eldar, they possess 15% higher sprint and 33% higher running speed, in exchange for 50 health / 300LP. Their hitbox is slightly smaller, approximately 25% on the torso+arms, even less on the legs. The head has the same size.
    The most dangerous thing about Dragons is their ability to equip a Melta-Bomb-Bundle.

    Fusion Guns
    They work the same way as Melta-guns: Ignore toughness, the longer the beam targets you, the more damage/sec you take.
    Most noticeably here is the unique: Fuegans Resolve.
    It takes much longer to overheat, hence applying a lot more damage. All in all a full burst of Fuegans Resolve can be compared with the damage of the full burst of a Multi-Melta, only taking about 3 seconds longer and consuming more ammo.

    Melta Bombs
    The basics are the same as yours: close range, Anti Vehicle-charges.
    The Bundle deals slightly less damage than regular Melta-Bombs but you get two of them.
    It will bring a Rhino down to approximately the same amount of HP as a normal Melta-bomb will a Wave Serpent.

    Dark Reapers
    Our heavy units. They have the best stats, especially toughness and the greatest choice of weaponry.
    As all Eldar, they possess 15% higher sprint and 33% higher running speed, in exchange for 50 health / 300LP. Their hitbox is slightly smaller, approximately 25% on the torso+arms, even less on the legs. The head has the same size.
    Their speed-bonus compares to other heavies, meaning they are still slower than Eldar usually. They can equip a 300LP-item to be on-par.

    Reaper Launchers
    Reaper Launchers are a hybrid of Lascannons and Plasma-cannons, getting the best of both worlds.
    Their main firing mode shoots a guided missile(will seek the crosshair is aiming) that deals 1000 damage(Lascannon) in a small area of effect(Plascannon, smaller ofc). It takes a moment to charge and cool down.
    This missile is highly telegraphed but lethal if not noticed. Whereas Lascannons function as AV and Plasma as area-denial weapon, Reaper-Launchers are primarily heavy snipers and anti-entrenchment weapon but can double in both roles of their sister-weapons.
    The secondary firing mode can be charged to unleash a volley of projectiles, which is entirely useless.
    However it can also fire semi-automatically with good damage and small AoE which can work for self-defense in melee.
    The Triparte-Unique deals higher damage on semi-auto fire and is a small but nice upgrade.

    Shuriken Cannons
    This is our equivalent to the Heavy-Bolter. It is identical in application and strength except for one advantage: due to the higher rate of fire, it applies suppression much quicker.
    In my personal experience, Shuriken-Cannons work better on the move and Heavy-Bolters excel when braced, but I have also heard people state the opposite.

    Tempest Launchers
    Tempest is not very important right now. It lobs bursts of missiles in an arc that can take out most targets in two, a few in one burst with a small AoE.
    It functions similar to the Plasma-Cannon only that it has lower range and also works better on lower range.
    Facing a Tempest head on is dangerous but not suicidal.
    Both the mastercrafted and the Storm-and-Fury unique prove a significant upgrade. It is known for teamkillling.

    Howling Banshees
    Essentially an Eldar Traitor-assault with the armor of a Jump-Assault.
    As all Eldar, they possess 15% higher sprint and 33% higher running speed, in exchange for 50 health / 300LP. Their hitbox is slightly smaller, approximately 25% on the torso+arms, even less on the legs. The head has the same size.
    Banshees are known for two things: Having great stamina-options and having a scream that applies some suppression, visual noise and melee-vulnerability. They can oneshot many targets under the effects of the scream but get into trouble, if that isn't an option.

    Power Swords
    Same as Marine Power-swords, down to the mod-options, uniques are not worth mentioning, slightly different damage.

    Striking Scorpions
    Armor stats-of a Ground-Assault but stealth instead of shields.
    As all Eldar, they possess 15% higher sprint and 33% higher running speed, in exchange for 50 health / 300LP. Their hitbox is slightly smaller, approximately 25% on the torso+arms, even less on the legs. The head has the same size.
    Personally, I don't think very highly of the stealth but it does seem to be effective in many situations.
    What it does is help with oneshots to the back and it complements existing cover or shadows, meaning a Scorpion on the open field is visible but one already hiding might not be.
    Scorpions rely strongly on striking from stealth but they still have solid stats after that.

    Again, basically the same as your options.
    The Lashsword-unique applies Poison resembling the Necrotic Chainsword which adds visual noise and lethality.

    Swooping Hawks
    Superior mobility to the point where it can not be compared even to other jump-classes, crossing the entire map in a matter of seconds is very powerful to defend off-points.
    Also, as a Hawk, you will always find a high-ground to shoot at enemies from if they are outside.
    Most fragile class in the game, still very hard to kill because they always have a way out.
    With the latest fuel-regen-nerf, Hawk immortality has suffered quite a bit. They are still highly mobilbe but no longer on-demand.

    Barely used, high RPM, low damage weapon, sub par to pretty much everything.

    Lasblasters with visual noise and suppression. Decent support-weapon but not really great.

    Hawks Talons
    Most used Hawk-weapon, not quite the DPS of the Boltgun, worse in hipfire and lacking scopes but very accurate, long-range sniping weapons.
    Very ammo-efficient.
    The Hunters Mark unique is a game-changer. It deals very high damage at low RPM and a small clip.
    Essentially a Designated Marksman Rifle, this semi-auto has the huge advantage of dealing massive damage on the first headshot, ending many fights before they really begin. Struggles with moving targets and requires good aim.

    Haywire Grenades
    10 Grenades for 50 LP, droppable from flight. They deal no damage but stun vehicles for a short duration, afte rwhich they also have to re-accelerate.
    They are already good on their own, as you can effectively lock down a Rhino for almost a minute but they are even better if used together with Fire Dragons.

    Hawksear Grenades
    A specialist tool, best used to attack fortresses. They are hard to use but easy to counter but can be devastating if they hit their mark.
    10 Grenades, decent damage, small AoE, expensive.

    Our support-class and decent in melee. Very fragile but can compensate with heals.
    As all Eldar, they possess 15% higher sprint and 33% higher running speed, in exchange for 50 health / 300LP. Their hitbox is slightly smaller, approximately 25% on the torso+arms, even less on the legs. The head has the same size.
    Warlocks have a focused heal like Chaos, albeit it doesn't work as well on squishy Eldar and a passive, radial heal that stays with the targets for a short time.
    Most spells are just for playing around except Enhance. Enhance is the core of every Eldar-team, adding 20% damage resistance and 20% outgoing hitscan damage.
    Enhance single-handily turns fights in our favor, it can easily be sustained on most of the team most of the time by a single Warlock.

    Generally not much different from other swords, right now the Witchblade of Fire is worth mentioning. Trading 10 base damage for 70 Fire Damage is obviously a really good deal, making Warlock the strongest melee-class in the current meta.

    Wave Serpents
    Our transports. They move at the same speed as Rhinos but accelerate faster. They have a turret on top that deals mediocre damage but adds suppression.
    They can strafe sidewards which leads to their roadkilling-abilities. They are very vulnerable to Grav-cannons and Lascannons but have a much easier time dealing with close-range AV.
    They have low HP.
    After the latest update, roadkill should no longer be a major concern. It is enough to kill isolated targets on a road but not to plow through an entire squad.

    Other than the Predator, noone really uses the main-guns (we also have much less, additional Firepower)
    Falcons are used for one purpose: driving around to get Dragons close to their Targets. Some people might go specifically for roadkills but it isn't really worth it usually. Everything a Falcon can do, a Serpent can do better but we don't always have a choice.

    Warp Hunters
    Our Siege-Tanks. They have less AoE and no projectile-trace, leaving you to guess, where the shot goes but the projectile is much less likely to bug out and land right in front of you.
    It is harder to hit Quad-guns but more likely to be possible at all. And, of course, they also have the road-kill option. They are decent Dragon-vessels.
    Zaxie, Vaanes, Faeruin and 1 other person like this.
  3. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    1) Introduction
    2) Overview of the faction
    3) History of the faction
    4) Real balancing/design problems
    5) Imaginary balancing problems/PEBCAK
    6) Mathematical considerations
    7) Possible solutions and bad solutions
    8) TLDR/Summary
    9) QA

    Now, I will not discuss every, minor change that has ever been made to the faction. But to understand why Eldar are the way they are now, you gotta know a bit about their background.

    First, I would like to briefly address the design-philosophy and ideas.
    Eldar are created to be
    -Reliant on teamwork.
    In EC, all factions benefit from teamwork but to a different scale. Eldar and LSM rely rather heavily on it whereas Chaos and Orks are pretty well of playing on their own.
    This is where the Eldar-design gets a bit counter-intuitive: We need to play as a team but the low EHP makes it very hard for us to just stack, zerg and win.

    We have 7 classes that generally resemble the 5 classes found on other factions. Imagine the JPA is split into Hawk+Banshee and the Tactical is split into Dire Avenger+Fire Dragon.
    Worth mentioning: In either event, one of the 'new' classes is generally considered too powerful and the other is generally considered too weak. (Actually, DA is fine now but still not quite as good as their equivalents)
    Ideally, all these classes are sub-par on their own but synergize well crush to the enemy if their full potential is being put to use.
    It is important to point out that this is an intended feature: Eldar are supposed to be hard to play and hard to beat!
    The way it turned out was not quite that. Now, working as an effective team comes rather easily to us (if we still don't do it, we lose) because combos like Hawk+Dragon or Warlock+DA are ridiculously easy to pull off for what they do. But it can't really compensate for our lack of stats on the highest level.

    One problem with Eldar is that, by the time they were created, there were no time nor resources to make them a unique race.
    Essentially, we are Space-Marines trading some health for speed and having some specialized classes. In a perfect world, there would be much greater extremes and differences between all factions in the game, allowing for a different playstyle.
    The current design results in a fundamental flaw:
    Whatever the Dire Avenger can do, in the end they still have to win duels!
    -If I make DA-stats weak, they can't fullfil their purpose of beating people in combat.
    -If I make DA-stats strong, they become a TActical with a speed-bonus.
    This problem hurts the Banshee a lot, as there is no room for an evasive melee-fighter in this game, especially without a jetpack.
    Ironically, the only class that does have a uniuqe identity is one of the most hated: The Swooping Hawk.
    Its still clunky but the Hawk resembles its lore-given role perfectly.

    When I, actively, started playing, Eldar had just been finished. They weren't polished but mostly balanced. A lot of people claimed they were OP but at the time it was already known they were really the weakest faction. That was about two months before Launch.
    Ever since then we have mostly received nerfs. All in all, until the very latest patch, the faction either stayed the same or got worse.
    Highlights include:
    -The melee-rework, that buffed everyone but us
    -Removing the Tempest-Launcher (cheese-weapon but also only counter to Bolter-porn)
    -Nerfs to Hawks, in particular Hawksear-grenades
    The latest patch was slightly different. Our AV got nerfed, yes, but so did everybody else's. The new game was normalized, with everyone being given the same chances.
    We got token-buffs, nothing meaningful but enough to feel good about it (I like to believe that this happened because I directly asked for it) and the infamous Boltgun finally got tuned down (maybe too much).
    As far as I am concerned, we are as close to 'balance' now as we have ever been, problems mostly exist in melee being too powerful and not powerful enough at the same time. Some adjustments may be necessary for Orks and LSM.

    As the faction changed, so did the players.
    I like to believe that Eldar attracted elitists from the start. If you are looking for the 'skill-faction', you go to the one with high speed and low health, its traditionally a high risk-high reward-concept.
    Whether or not this is true, what we never had was the huge influx of new players that came to LSM and, to a lesser degree, CSM as the poster-boys.
    We always had less players, more experienced players and better players. As far as I am concerned, this disparity has only increased.
    Up until a few months, this stayed more or less the same. Eldar have been winning as long as I am with this game but not excessively.
    There has always been a debate whether this is balance or players and never fully conclusive but the evidence and the math pretty clearly points in one direction.
    Based on the Arkhona War Reports, Chaos was actually gaining ground on us and about to claim their rightful place at the top.
    Then, we had massive drops in the playerbase., More importantly: It would become hard to find any Eldar-matches off prime-time.
    I honestly think this change is the main reason we stomp everything now.
    Everyone who is not truly dedicated to the faction never gets to play it.
    -We group up in warparties or guilds to get matches running in the first place
    -We are a small, closely connected community where everyone knows each other and trusts each other
    -Influx of new players is almost dead and they get integrated very quickly
    If there is an Eldar-match, consider half the players in it a guildstack because the probably are in everything but the name.
    There are more High-Threat-players (carry-players) in one Eldar match than I see in a whole evening playing LSM vs CSM.
    Btw, late-night Eldar-teams are often worse than early- or prime-time one's.

    An Eldar-player is not great or better by default just for playing Eldar, but we do have a lot more great or better players, on average.

    Finally, a short note about our opponents. I believe many people who used to try and fight Eldar have stopped, whether they dodge the queue or just play for frags, even guilds avoid us.
    The amount of level 3 or less I see on the enemy team is staggering and simply can not be representative for EC as a whole.
    On that note: If you haven't reached lvl 5, you are not a threat. You may be a great player with great potential but, for now, you are irrelevant to the outcome of a match. That is perfectly fine too but you can't expect to win with a team composed mostly of such players against one, that isn't.
    Zaxie and Faeruin like this.
  4. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    1) Introduction
    2) Overview of the faction
    3) History of the faction
    4) Real balancing/design problems
    5) Imaginary balancing problems/PEBCAK
    6) Mathematical considerations
    7) Possible solutions and bad solutions
    8) TLDR/Summary
    9) QA

    In its essence, the real problems with Eldar boil down to a core-statement:

    Eldar are not more powerful than any, other faction, but they are harder to beat!

    How does that work?
    First things first: I don't require you to read the previous post but I do need you to accept that the average Eldar-team is more experienced and more coordinated than their opponents. That alone is not enough for a victory, it is also not always the case, but its a huge factor.

    Now, the real problem is not so much that Eldar are 'OP', not that they are 'awesome', its that we are a pain in the ass to fight!
    A lot of counter-strategies are counter-intuitive:
    -Drive your transport around instead of taking the point.
    -Don't try to kill a fleeing Hawk.
    -Don't brace Heavy Weapons outside.
    -Don't shoot the Warlock first.
    Others simply require a lot of effort and focus
    -Watch the skies.
    -Check your stealthcap for Scorpions.
    -Aim for the head.
    -Destroy every Wave-serpent
    None of this is particularly hard but it might not be something everyone knows you have to do and a lot of times, one player can't do it alone, you need your team to play along.
    Finally, a lot of this simply isn't fun, making the match as a whole less enjoyable.

    These are not balance-problems. But they are design-problems. If winning the match requires you to do something that sucks out any enjoyment of the game (like being a dedicated driver), that is not very well done.
    The main, design-problems include:
    -Hawks have the perfect 'get-out-of-jail'-card and are almost impossible to kill unless they let you.
    -The shortened AV-TTK increases downtime in a match and prevents fighting.
    -Enhance is too important to have and too powerful if being had.
    -Roadkilling is a lot more frustrating than the actual amount of kills suggests.

    There are also good design-choices that might cause some frustration.
    The shortened TTK is one of them. Mistakes are punished more, fights are quicker. It hurts new players more, taking away their opportunity to learn, making them feel powerless.
    Or outbound defense. I love that Eldar are not confined to the capture-point-room, flying around free as a Hawk, spotting, hunting and distracting targets outside where others just camp.
    Yet, I also get how annoying that is from the antagonistic side. A single Raptor doing the same can drive me into rage and they are not closely as effective nor common.

    All of the above doesn't exactly get better by Eldar being fucking tryhards.
    Whether it is the general, elitist attitude, or us being forced into playing all our tools for mere survival, we do everything we can to win.
    I find myself deliberately using cheesy options to punish others for how much stronger they are, other times it's just about winning or even a mercy-blow to end a one-sided fight quickly.
    In any event, regardless of the motivations: If there is anything that can help us winning, someone on the team will do it.
    It backfires, too. If Eldar lose, its usually because too many people got impatient and tried to do something when they should have just defended their captures.

    Finally, there are, some, legitimate balancing concerns. They are mostly outweighed by downsides, but they are still real:
    -Hawks are really good at alpha-striking and taking out soft targets.
    -Reaper-Launchers are awesome anti-entrenchment weapons.
    -A Dire Avenger with Enhance is now directly superior to any Tactical or Traitor, even with buffs.
    -Falcons are much easier to use than Predators.
    -Hitbox, speed and hitreg can be a bitch at high latency.
    -Haywire is way too effective locking down a Rhino solo.

    There is a lot of situational stuff, too. For instance a lot of Eldar-assets work better on defense than they do in offense. There are other things that may be situationally powerful but not to a degree greater or lesser than other factions.

    Our main downsides are:
    -If we fight in a fair duel, we lose.
    -We are often outgunned by Smart-pistols.
    -Eldar are very vulnerable to melee, in particular Jetpacks, and often have little options but save each other.
    -Our vehicles are very vulnerable to Lascannons.
    -We can't spam a defensive position with nades, Kannons or Plasma and are much more easily killed by such methods.
    Zaxie, JojoKasei and Faeruin like this.
  5. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    1) Introduction
    2) Overview of the faction
    3) History of the faction
    4) Real balancing/design problems
    5) Imaginary balancing problems/PEBCAK
    6) Mathematical considerations
    7) Possible solutions and bad solutions
    8) TLDR/Summary
    9) QA

    A lot of 'balancing problems' are just misunderstood design-problems. I covered those in the last post.
    But there are also complaints about Eldar that are simply not true, I will go over some highlights:

    Eldar OP
    Be more specific, please. Saying this is equivalent to saying "I lost and I didn't like it". You have no idea, what you are talking about, that's why you don't actually talk about anything.

    Eldar AV OP / Fire Dragons OP
    This used to be reasonable. I have seen countless variations of this argument. Just plain out saying that Fire Dragons are OP is wrong tho and has always been. AV, in general, is very powerful, especially for low-level or mediocre teams, especially on defense and especially on certain maps.
    This is not exclusive to Eldar, AV wins games because of how essential transports are.
    For Eldar, there apply a few modifiers:
    -Our AV is much faster. Just like Dire Avengers kill faster and die faster, so too do we destroy transports faster and our transports get destroyed faster.
    -We have a dedicated AV-class, which leads to a lot more people actually playing AV. Being forced to do so in order to win is also a huge factor.
    In direct comparison, our AV has never been superior. We excel at killing Rhinos but everybody else excels at killing wave-serpents, seems fair, doesn't it?
    The reason Eldar-Av has been dominant for so long is that we simply do it more, you are going to see 2-3 players dedicated to it on our team every time.
    The other, often underestimated, reason are Haywire Grenades. You can literally take a meta-Hawk-loadout, one of the best builds in the game, and give it the ability to halt a Rhino for almost a minute without sacrificing anything.
    There used to be one, legitimate variant of this argument: "Eldar-AV is oneshot" And its true, you were able to run up to a Rhino, attach two bombs and it would be done for, even if you died a split-second later.
    However, this doesn't apply anymore. Dragons are no longer too good, only the Haywire remains which is much easier to use but not significantly more powerful than a good Grav-Cannon.

    Eldar have too many Oneshot-weapons
    This one hasalways baffled me! Melee can oneshot, if we apply a Debuff/Buff and hit you in the back with a heavy-attack, but that applies to every melee-class, we don't even have heavy weapons and we suffer from this problem way more.
    Just saying, if a Scorpion hits you in the back, its kinda your fault, you can hear Chainswords a long time before they hit you!
    Other than that, we have a single Oneshot-weapon: The Reaper Launcher, which is pretty much only popular for Fortresses.
    I analyzed that asset earlier, it is great but not overpowered. You have to expose yourself for a long time to fire, it is a very visible, very telegraphed attack that can easily be avoided and it fires very slowly.
    I get that the Reaper can be awesome in a crowded scenario, I recently used it in the fighting between two groups of heavies on top of a fortress wall and got two kills with every shot, but that is kinda the excact type of Scenario it is designed for, a Plasma in the same situation would have been just as effective.
    There is virtually no, other oneshot-weapon.

    Eldar deal too much damage
    I will do the math later for you, after the Boltgun-nerf, you kill us about as fast as we kill you, in the best-case-scenario for us that is.

    Eldar are too fast
    We get +15% top-speed, our speed can conflict with latency but it should not be enough to throw off your aim.

    Eldar have small hitboxes
    Not much smaller, at least not the relevant area. If you want to shoot me in the knee, that would be a challenge. Its hard to estimate but I'd say the torso-area might be 20-25% smaller, head-hitbox is more or less identical.

    Hawks get to spots that noone else can
    Yes, that doesn't really do anything for us tho. The advantage of a Hawks is that they can always find high-ground outside. Not more and not less.
    Fighting an enemy with high-ground is difficult, fighting an enemy on high-ground who has both a worse weapon and worse defensive stats should at least be possible.
    I can only recommend to avoid engaging Hawks, stay inside or in cover but, if you have to, you should have a decent chance at winning, regardless of where they sit.

    Eldar Vehicles are too fast
    They are precisely as fast as yours, only accelerate faster.
    I will be the first to admit that our tanks are superior, but only because they are fun to drive around with.

    Eldar-weapons have no spread/recoil
    No, they don't. Neither have yours.

    This is really but a small selection. There are more complaints than there are Eldar-builds.
    Most of them are either flat out wrong or suspiciously lacking details, almost as if the person who made them never did any research or tried Eldar.
    A lot of times they arise from confusion, for instance because people don't know the difference between a Tempest Launcher and a Reaper Launcher.

    I would like to mention that I had discussions with people who literally said the problem is that Eldar try to win too hard.
    A lot of time,s in Eldar matches, you find people advocating to give points to the enemy to prologue the match, either to farm more kills or to make them feel better. I, myself, have started to excessively execute my kills to give enemies a chance to kill me in return.
    Now, they aren't wrong. Eldar playing to win is the main reason few find it enjoyable to face us.
    But that is not our problem to fix, that is not a balancing-issue.
    The only 'fix' for that is for everyone else to do the same or live with the consequences.
    Zaxie and Faeruin like this.
  6. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    1) Introduction
    2) Overview of the faction
    3) History of the faction
    4) Real balancing/design problems
    5) Imaginary balancing problems/PEBCAK
    6) Mathematical considerations
    7) Possible solutions and bad solutions
    8) TLDR/Summary
    9) QA
    I will be honest...this sheet does not actually say anything about balance in the game. It does, however, do a fairly good job at illustrating it.

    Eldar melee is generally subpar, except for Warlocks, with the Scorpion having her niche.
    Hawks are also losing every, fair fight, but of course they have mobility.
    Dragons are still not an AP-class, Reapers are perhaps the best heavy with the respective downsides.
    Dire Avengers are actually pretty balanced right now. They are a bit better than Loyalist Space Marine equivalents and a bit weaker than Chaos Traitors or Shoota-boys.

    Most, common, 'Eldar OP'-arguments can be mathematically disproven in 5 minutes or less.
    Eldar don't kill you faster than you kill them, the same applies to Eldar AV.
    Our weapons do not have 'no spread and no recoil' more/less than yours.
  7. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    1) Introduction
    2) Overview of the faction
    3) History of the faction
    4) Real balancing/design problems
    5) Imaginary balancing problems/PEBCAK
    6) Mathematical considerations
    7) Possible solutions and bad solutions
    8) TLDR/Summary
    9) QA

    This is all well and good, maybe Eldar are not OP. But it doesn't help with the problems at hand:
    Eldar win all the time and fighting them is not very enjoyable.
    This isn't going away, whether I call it 'balancing-problem', 'design-problem' or 'git-gud'.

    So, how are we fixing this?

    For starters, three things:
    -No, direct nerfs. They are unjustified and will only upset a shrinking playerbase further
    -Nerf high-performing or annoying assets and buff niche and fair elements
    -Embrace asymmetrical balance instead of removing it, but maybe try to accomplish it in a different way.

    Four classes stand at the core of the problem: Hawk, Dragon, Warlock, Scorpion.
    Reapers are basically like other heavies with the same upsides and downsides, Banshees are underpowered, whether or not Jordan wants to admit it, but don't have to be part of this discussion, Dire Avengers are in the best place they have ever been, not really more nor less powerful than a Tactical but still with their own playstyle.

    There isn't a whole lot we can do about Dragons. Their effectiveness is bound to map-design, either you nerf all AV or none. What could be done is further decrease the side-strafing speed of Eldar tanks to take away maneuverability and roadkill-options. It has been done before and I don't see harm in doing it again.
    If, however, significant changes are being made to Dragons or Serpents, I would like to see our tank-weaponry receive a significant buff, aswell as Fusion-guns.

    As for Hawks...they are perfect. Strong but not quite overpowered, fun to play, very challenging but rewarding to master and entirely unique in the game.
    I really hate the idea of changing anything about Hawks.
    If it must be done, I think they should not be allowed to fly when their armor is dropped, so they can be hunted down more reliably and not always escape.
    Further buffs to durability would also be acceptable to truly pigeonhole them into their role as snipers and harassers, making them unable to engage targets that fight back.
    The current approach, nerfing fuel-regen, does not seem promising. It will only take away what makes the Hawk fun, not what makes them strong.
    It will unnecessarily upset the playerbase without fixing any issue.
    Haywire are also an obvious target for a nerf, for starters by decreasing the charges from 10 to 5.
    In exchange, I want a deep scope.

    Warlocks or, more precisely: Enhance prove a core problem to balancing attempts.
    Everything with Enhance is too powerful, everything without Enhance is not powerful enough, Enhance can be sustained on the entire team, but usually isn't...
    I don't really see a way around nerfing or even removing it. In general, I would like to unbind Eldar from the Warlock so they can excel at small-unit-tactics instead. Teamwork is all well and good but I think it would be more healthy for the game if 'teamwork' didn't equal 'stacking'.
    I think Embolden should heal much less but last much longer or even be replaced with a passive health-reg on all Eldar all the time so they can more easily separate from their support.
    But that is dreaming, for now: Enhance.
    We have two, competing spells: The defensive buff Protect and the defensive debuff Jinx.
    Enhance is so much better at both that it renders them obsolete, so the obvious choice would be to rework or remove Enhance and buff the other two instead.
    Jinx is easy. It originates from a time where EC wanted to be more MMORPG-like, from Team-Fortress to Overwatch there already exists a much better implementation of the same spell: not a defensive debuff, but an offensive buff. Use everything you do now: Channeled on target, spreads to nearby allies and Enhances their damage, although maybe not by 100% as the current Jinx.
    Protect is more difficult. I know, what to do with it but it is mechanically challenging. For now, just limiting the energy-drain might be enough.
    As far as Enhance goes, I wouldn't be too sad to see it go completely. Warlock with Witchblade of Fire is a more than capable fighter, both Force and Destructor have a lot more potential (Force could easily be a teambuff and Destructor could chain between multiple targets)
    It would actually be refreshing to see the Warlock in a more offensive role than just a buff-bot.

    Scorpions are, I believe, one of the most unjustly hated assets. They are a really solid class but they get a lot of crap for their stealth which really isn't all that powerful.
    I actually have a simple solution for this: Nerf stealth a tiny bit and make it more widespread. I don't know about you but I would love to see a Stalker Bolter with Stealth and Servo-skull, very flavorful.
    Stealth really isn't all that powerful so I am not afraid of spreading it and if its helps people understand that the Scorpion is fine, even better.

    Thinking about how to nerf Eldar without destroying reminds me that there really isn't anything left that can still be nerfed.
    In the context of a full overhaul, a rework of the entire game, I know, what I would do, but minor changes that preserve asymmetrical balance...almost impossible.
    There are many nerfs I could accept, whether they seem called for or not, as long as something else gets buffed to preserve balance.
    All in all, that would likely remain the most promising approach.
    Zaxie and Faeruin like this.
  8. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    1) Introduction
    2) Overview of the faction
    3) History of the faction
    4) Real balancing/design problems
    5) Imaginary balancing problems/PEBCAK
    6) Mathematical considerations
    7) Possible solutions and bad solutions
    8) TLDR/Summary
    9) QA

    -Eldar are not Overpowered. They are not directly underpowered either, although they will lose a direct confrontation at equal skill-level.
    -Eldar excel at avoiding direct confrontations and still winning. By means of harassment or Anti-Vehicle-play.
    -Playing against Eldar is understandably frustrating, because the entire design is focused on denying fair combat.
    -Every argument commonly made about Eldar being OP is wrong and can be proven wrong. There are, however, a few valid points that generally get overlooked.

    There has been a long-going development of Eldar teams having better players. This is due to several, well known factors, it's a fact and you can confirm it simply by looking at the roster of every Eldar match you are in, as well as observing the faction-chat or your team's actions.

    'Balance issues' and 'design issues' are commonly confused. Eldar have plenty of the latter and few of the former.

    There is a huge amount of players who simply never learn how to fight Eldar, often because they consider them OP. More than half of my opponents, upon being shot by a Hawk, either don't react at all or react the wrong way.

    You, alone, can't fight Eldar. It is always a team-effort. Arguably, fighting a semi-well organized Eldar team takes more effort than being a semi-well organized Eldar team.
    Eldar are given a lot of tools to work effectively as a team. If we don't use them at all, we are screwed but if we do (and it's not very hard), it can be a dreadful display.
  9. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    1) Introduction
    2) Overview of the faction
    3) History of the faction
    4) Real balancing/design problems
    5) Imaginary balancing problems/PEBCAK
    6) Mathematical considerations
    7) Possible solutions and bad solutions
    8) TLDR/Summary
    9) QA
  10. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    Reserved for whatever may come to my mind <3
    Faeruin likes this.

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