You know what? Fine, here's the *other* post, I don't want to put words in ADBs mouth, so I figure just transcribing it is for the best. Not exactly. This is a key point, right here. There are a couple of references to "We've fought Marines before" and "We've been unleashed on a Legion before." But look at that in context. That just means what it says - they've fought Marines before - and a lot of people took it to mean the Lost Legions. Especially, in all fairness, the keenest and most eager Space Wolf fans who were eager for "their Legion" to have done these amazing feats, making them objectively more powerful than any other Legion. Now, for a moment, ignore Dan's awesome marketing line in a promotional video, where he talks about the Space Wolves being the most savage Legion, or simply "so savage that there must be a reason" the Emperor kept them around. The Emperor had several Legions just as savage, if not moreso, and that's been their deal for 25+ years of the license. So, in all fairness, let's call marketing marketing, and realise that every trailer for every book or movie plays with words like that. I said something similar in the trailer for The First Heretic: "A Legion will kneel in the dust of all it created, and the only way they can redeem themselves is to sell their souls." Monarchia wasn't "all" they created, and I'm sure the Word Bearers could've redeemed themselves by, y'know, not starting a civil war. But it's the sense of inevitability that drives the lore and story. It's trailer-talk. So forget the trailer. It's nothing to do with the writing - we need to focus on the writing. At no point is it confirmed as the Lost Legions - and, well, the Wolves are no stronger than any other Legion: it's unlikely they'd be able to murder two other whole Legions, then rock up ready to fight a third a mere century later. That's a conflict on an unprecedented scale. So by logic, even if there was a way they could've fought the Lost Legions in the lore (and we know there's not) it's incredibly unlikely they'd have been ready for Round Three, even against one of the smallest Legions, and even with the help of the Custodians and the Sisters of Silence. But let's leave even that assumption aside for a moment, and focus on cold fact. We, as fans and readers, know that the Wolves didn'tkill the Lost Legions. We know that there's no true story about the Lost Legions, and we know that it's unlikely any story will be invented. It's been GW policy to say nothing about them since forever, and all public comment has kept in line about it. We also know that no one author would be allowed to just hand out something like that about the Lost Legions, because that would break every rule about the Lost Legions in the first place. Dan's reference about the Lost Legions was, in that regard, another teaser - just like all the others in Heresy. I threw one in about the Ultramarines being so large because they absorbed the Lost Legions after the two Lost Primarchs 'vanished'. It's no more or less likely than the Space Wolf theory, but the Space Wolf theory targeted the hugest (and arguably most passionate) Marine fandom in the hobby, ostensibly making that faction incredibly powerful, so of course it was going to stick a little harder than any other theory, whether it was supposed to stick or not. My theory wasn't supposed to stick, either: it's in-character discussion from uninformed soldiers on the ground level, not privy to command decisions but still in earshot of all gossip. We, as readers, know that's not true. We know from the lore (or we can easily find out from older source material) that the Ultramarines were huge because of Guilliman's leadership style and Ultramar's organisational process. Just like we know that the Lost Legions' stories won't be revealed. Given all that, do you think Dan would've just broken the One Rule about the Lost Legions, and given them a history? Which is more likely - that he broke the One Rule in a tiny, hinting way that somehow flashed past every editor, or that a few hints have been taken wildly out of context and assumed to be something they're not? But there's more. At this point, the "executioner" theory was, in all consideration, a pretty flimsy case. A cool rumour, a nice edge the Legion may or may not have really had, but they certainly believed they did. No one outside the Space Wolves confirmed it. They'd "fought Marines before", which could've meant anything at all, and categorically didn't mean the Lost Legions, as we've discussed above. But there was no real evidence or case for it at all, beyond the fact that Leman Russ and his Legion invade Prospero, and - let's be honest - manage to succeed by a wild storm of things going in their favour. The Thousand Sons are taken utterly by surprise; their Primarch blinds his men to the attack, going so far as to even kill some of them so Prospero can be surprise-attacked; he sends his Legion's war-fleet away to leave the planet undefended; and doesn't even help his own warriors until the last day. Plus, the Wolves have the Custodians and the Sisters of Silence on their side. To say they didn't have a lot in their favour there is to massively underestimate the tragedy of the Thousand Sons. And that's the deal, there. It's less about how tough the Wolves are, and more about the betrayal and tragedy of the Thousand Sons. it's not the Wolves' story, and that's fine - they've got plenty of stories. Added to that, we know from the first few books and several older lore sources that the Emperor sends Leman Russ to arrest Magnus the Red, and bring him back to Terra. It's Horus who convinces Leman Russ to attack Prospero instead, and wipe the Thousand Sons from the face of the Imperium. There's conflicting lore for that in Prospero Burns, but that's off-screen chatter, whereas we actually see Horus on-screen discussing what happened. In that case, you could argue it's 50/50.The HH team, f'rex, goes by what happened on-screen. You can't retcon Horus saying what he said, and doing what he did. I specifically had questions about this, actually, and that was the answer I got. Horus deceived the Wolves into attack. That's the true (truer...) story. it doesn't make Prospero Burns wrong, because there's no conflict, it just means they show different moments and aspects of the same events. That's kinda the point, so we're all good on that score. So, with that perspective, here's what we know: 1. The Space Wolves say they've been unleashed before, and several other Legionnaires have heard about it, too. 2. The Wolves have fought other Marines before Prospero, and consider themselves the Emperor's executioners. 3. Leman Russ was almost definitely convinced by/deceived by Horus into attacking Prospero. The Emperor just wanted Magnus arrested, as has long been established. 4. No author would really reveal the fate of the Lost Legions, as it goes against the core of the Lost Legions concept. 1 and 2 are pivotal, here. 3 is debatable, given the "loose canon" nature of 40K as a setting. Everything and nothing is true, sure, although one case has more evidence here. And as for 4, you could argue that's unfair knowledge, as a general reader wouldn't know that without delving deeper into the hobby and fandom. So let's consider 1 and 2 above all. 1 and 2 still categorically say nothing about the Lost Legions, but people assumed for all the reasons stated above. Okay, so we're almost there. (On a personal note: You could argue that me knowing this and pointing it out is somehow insulting or biased against the Wolves, but you'd be wrong. Saying all this before is what triggered several stupid rounds of "AD-B HAS A GRUDGE AGAINST THE WOLVES" which is so nonsensical I couldn't help but reply. However, I'm sure it's disappointing for Wolves fans who had a lot riding on their Legion mythically being the only Legion to be better than all others, but with respect, it's my job to treat the license professionally and seriously, not as a peeing contest of My Dad's Bigger Than Your Dad.) So, cut to my thoughts, if you still have the stomach to ride this rollercoaster all the way to the end. I'm the most ardent supporter of the Wolves-as-executioners, I'm Dan's biggest fan, and have done a lot to add credence and in-universe realism to the executionertheory. The problem is, when I first wanted to add credibility to it, as you can see from a complete picture, the evidence was pretty conflicting. I appreciate it doesn't look at all conflicting to Space Wolf fans that took those little references instantly and utterly to mean the Wolves killed the Lost Legions, but I think we've covered all the reasons that's pretty doubtful. At best. But I still wanted to support the overall idea, and make it make sense in wider context. So I decided to introduce some balance to it from other angles, some explanation-realism, and tie up the loose ends. The Wolves needed some actual evidence for this to really mean anything at all, and I wanted to back up Dan's original idea rather than leave it half-supported and massively misunderstood. They'd fought Marines before, but not the Lost Legions? Who then? Are they really theexecutioners at all? Is it self-appointed, or an Imperial mandate? Does that last fact even matter? Which is why, in Aurelian, when Lorgar has visions of his Legion being wiped clean from Mankind, Fateweaver tells him that "Russ and Curze" would be the ones to destroy the Word Bearers, in that possible reality. Which is why, in Betrayer, the opening quote is from Khârn's unpublished treatise, stating that the World Eaters would be terrible as the Emperor's executioners, and the Wolves are perfect for it. He insults them as he does it, from the point of view of a bitter man struggling with his own loyalty. The theme of Betrayer from start to finish is one of Fraternal Loyalty: the ways emotion can enrich or sour it, and what it means in the face of duty - or worse - necessity. And Khârn's prediction is absolutely right, when the two Legions meet. One of them is lost to their neural implants, lost to uncontrollable savagery. Their goal is to kill, and they do it. The other fights to achieve a specific objective (trying to avoid spoilers), and they do it to perfection, too. Which is why, also in Betrayer, the Wolves do indeed "fight other Marines in the past", in difficult circumstances, and yet it's a situation that offers both sides of the situation salvageable pride (both the Wolves and the World Eaters believe they've "won" the encounter - and by the moralities and cultures of their Legions' perspectives, they did both win). And, natch, it confirms the fact the Wolves believed this was their role among the Legions - and most importantly, they acted like it was their role - without confirming the fact the Emperor may or may not have given it to them. The main issue arises when someone shortens all this into "AD-B says the Wolves didn't kill the Lost Legions" or whatever, and changes the tone of it, missing out the detail. It's not true, it's just that because stuff like this has so much detail and nuance (and I'm the only one really shedding light on it in public/open to discussing it lots) that when it goes into Chinese Whispers, the end result is occasionally people who've had no real contact with the topic's details thinking I'm unprofessional enough to have some weirdly sinister agenda against their toy soldiers. Shoot the messenger. He hates the Space Wolves. He's changing all this stuff. Doesn't matter that it's already the lore. I appreciate it's easy to ignore a lot of this wordy spiel, but a freak-load of consideration and research goes into moments like that. And judging from the forum feedback, reviews, Twitter and facebook, people clearly get all of this from Betrayer, and most readers were well aware of the wider narrative, anyway. The misunderstandings arise from the fact that Prospero Burns has a few in-character lines of dialogue taken as gospel fact, rather than weighed with a little more, uh, consideration. So anything that contradicts those conversational lines in Prospero Burns is seen as wrong, or insulting, by a vocal minority. This is why misunderstandings arise, though. It only becomes a problem when people refuse to change their positions and consider the bigger picture. The main misunderstandings come from Prospero Burns. People take a few minor references to mean something stunningly, massively, hugely major. That's cool, it's also very 40K, but it's shaky ground to then assume anything else is wrong, or argue that conflicting evidence is wrong. Castles built on sand, and all that.
the real question is: why the emperor destroyed also the legions? the two legion don't have a single loyal marine?
It is a well known fact in RPG that books about a clan, chapter or any organisation is written from the point of view of the said group. With what they believe truth: history, myth, etc... This mechanic is about immersion of the reader into the world, giving RP hints and some background materials. The fact is then that all books are contradictory. The best example being the White Wolf publication. Problems arise when you try to make all those near universe visions as one. Then people argue for their own vision. And Warhammer 40k work the same. In conclusion we have to focus on common ground and don't think too much about irreconcilable parts of the story.
We wil never know anything about he lost legions because their entire purpose is for people to create their own chapters. Stop trying to create something that isn't there. Darthy has been right all along so leave it at that.
I thought the 5th book was ''Fulgrim'' Is Tempest the 5th in the time line or something? And also could you write how the Ultramarines got their numbers? If you dont want to spoil it for people please write in private,,, Im quite curious now Also,,, on the point of some space wolfs talking about having fought other legions before,,,three is a part where Angron tells Lorgar a story of when his legion fights the Space Wolfs, where russ simply wants to get Angron to learn a lesson, that their way of fighting doesnt win wars, where even tho russ is defeated Angron is surounded by Space Wolfs in a large circle all aiming their bolters at him. It took a long time and Lorgar to get him to understand that.
