I've been wondering if a smaller scale implementation of the idea put forth by Quothe here might be successful. Specifically, why not reduce the amount of experience and requisition that is awarded to players in massive zerg formations and one sided fights, evaluated by region? Players would be thus be encouraged to spread out from massive concentrated formations into smaller fights by giving them missions in different zones, and informing them through drastically lowered experience gain that their current fight isn't a productive spot to be fighting.

I say "reduced for zergs" rather than "increased for defenders" because I don't think increasing experience for the outnumbered faction has a good track record of helping things much, as shown pretty clearly in PS2, where even a 15% increase in exp gain for defenders isn't enough to turn population imbalances around. And that makes sense - when you're massively outnumbered and getting spammed from within your spawn, no amount of exp gain is going to make that fun. You might be better off trying and sniping from safety, but you'll enjoy yourself more if you just go find another fight elsewhere. A spectrum of modifiers just doesn't have much of an effect on player psychology.

But what about giving a flat 40-60% reduction in exp gain where zerg formations are above a certain critical mass, AND when they outnumber the enemy more than 2-1?

(Edit: made this AND, since trying to discourage large even-sided fights is clearly counterproductive to what EC is all about! This would be to discourage killfarming and base saturation, not big fights. Sorry about that.)

(Edit again: WOW do people really not like this idea. People have raised some good points, and I've conceded that the best way of doing zerg reduction is destroyable spawns, which I thought had been ditched by the devs but are apparently still on the table. There's some interesting discussion if you want to read but no further need to tell me how wrong I am.)

When the cap is reached, a big pop up appears on the screen and an announcer informs you that "your presence is no longer required here!", and your income will be harshly capped with the "killfarming debuff" until you move to a more valuable location. Zergs are motivated by individual personal gain - lower that resource farm and start barraging them with alternative fights where they'd be more successful, and they might spread out of their own accord. It makes sense from a lore/meta/realism perspective too - when a fight is an absolute curbstomp, there's no reason that the individual soldiers should be equally rewarded vs a hard fought balanced battle.

I know this concept has been brought up before in spectrum form, where little gains in exp are implemented to try and move players around. But what do you guys think of making it a single, harsh debuff? It'd basically be trading statistical flexibility for psychological efficiency.

Allow me to argue here.

1. This is a 40k mmo, on a single server, zergs are going to be constant.
2. What is 40k without a zerg?
3. Lowering a players experience gain is bad for player-experience.
   
4. If they are encouraged to leave a zerg, then they will just start another zerg somewhere else.
5. Whats the point if there is no 500attackers vs 100 defenders battles? Wouldn't that be awesome to see them get overrun or defend until they get reinforcements?
6. There are better ways to deal with this, that have been discussed in a few threads (and by developers)
   
7. You are encouraging Orks not to be Orky?

Thats all I have to say really.

IT'S NOT CALLED A ZERG IN ETERNAL CRUSADE, IT'S CALLED A WAAAGH!!!!!

Which you're idea discourages. So Orks won't like it.

XP isn't the magic solution to the problem; people caught up in a zerg WAAAGH! will be having to much fun enjoying steamrolling the enemy to notice an XP drop.

It'd be much better to have mechanics to limit the effectiveness of a zerg WAAAGH! such as;

• Making MSPs come with finite spawn numbers, requiring re-charge at the nearest, un-invaded base
• Disabling base spawning for a time while it repairs from the destruction wrought by the attackers conquest
• Impose supply attrition costs; the further the zerg WAAAGH! progresses, the more expensive spawning vehicles/expensive stuff costs, takes longer too

Things like this are much better than XP alterations. Now the person facing a zerg WAAAGH! can attack MSPs coming to and from the front, starving the zerg WAAAGH! of players. The further the zerg WAAAGH! gets the harder it gets for it to progress because of increased spawning costs/time, etc, allowing the defenders to man a well defended fortress and break the tide on the walls, before scattering the zerg WAAAGH! to the winds with obscene levels of gunfire.

Give the players a chance to change their situation, don't give the zerg WAAAGH! a reason not to. Especially when this game is ABOUT large battles.

And as @Cupcakeunleashed ninja-ly said as I typed this post (grr) most of this stuff has been discussed already, with better solutions. And most people agree, XP is a weak incentive.

I'd rather see a dynamic system where Tyranids show up on a flank and mix things up if the "Zerg" pushes too far through too much territory as opposed to using them for harassment behind supply lines.

I think you mean what is a zerg without 40k.

I vote for replacing the term Zerg Rush with Nid Rush when discussing Tyranids, due to the fact that the Tyranids were already using swarm tactics years before the Zerg even existed. Codex: Tyranids (2nd Ed.) was released in 1993, StarCraft released in 1998. Also, the Tyranids are what the Zerg want to be like when they grown up. Just sayin...

Give me a small organised strike / guerrilla warfare force over a "WAAAGH" (zerg) any day.

Saying that, being rewarded for being out numbered and taking on a larger force against all odds to me seems preferable to the larger force being punished for something they cant help, overpopulation though if its not too crippling to the winning side as they still need incentive to play and the game still needs to be fun and rewarding then maybe a reduction in personal requisition points and / or speed in which side grade progression is gained would be good.

Things like faster progression along the 'side grade' mechanic or faster production of personal requisition points to spend on hero spawns would be nice. Faster hero turn around for the out numbered faction would help some to sway the tide.

Have you guys tried playing PS2 or Guild Wars 2? This is really in the context of those, and I'm not going to argue this on the merits of lore or other non-gameplay metrics.

An actual zerg, not just a large force with a lot of coordinated firepower but a zerg, this whopping isolated meteor of unaffiliated players that rockets around the map for carrot-on-a-stick material gain without any kind of consideration for territory or wider strategy, those aren't much fun for anybody. Even for orks. All zergs do is show up at a base, saturate it so completely that no actual fighting can occur, and then sit there until the points all flip. Rinse and repeat.

This isn't meant to stop a horde, where lots of players get together on a front to push a point before moving on to other objectives. It's not meant to try and disadvantage lots of players working together in a tough fight either. It's meant to deal with the absolute extreme of player density and one sided fights, and would have to be adjusted as such. Hence the idea that it would only activate once the fight is at 2:1 or more, where the fighting is going to be pretty stale and farm-y anyway.

Even an ork horde would be better suited to spreading out a bit so every onnna da boyz getz a bit 'a da dakka. 'Else we jus gonna be sittn an NOT FIGHTN! Watch'n da meks bomb da the humiez when dey pop der hedz out. DAZ BORIN. We gots to kill ALL da humiez, not just da ones on dis one spot!

DON'T GO THINKIN I WANNA BE SUM BUG. ZERGS'R BORIN. NO ZERGS.

Sorry, I got a little orky there. But seriously, zergs are bad for everybody, especially the orks, where the mass of FTP players probably won't be coordinated enough to spread out without being coerced. Think of it as being a really loud warboss who's concerned about his waaaagh getting dull and yellin at da boyz all da time.

There is a very energetic conversation about population balancing in the founder forums atm. Over the course of ... a long time... I've developed an answer to encouraging a zerg when it is needed, and offering solutions for where it isn't.

To understand why an Economy will prevent a faction from Zerging, we need to understand the Economy.

Economy - We assume that each Faction's Economy is directly linked to Spawning and building a Faction's best assets.

Economy - (RESOURCES) Original Concept by Elementf; inspiration by Kanthric, Rikmar, and NOMAD.

• Critical Resources (Power): Power is gathered by holding or capturing major objectives and is used on a faction level for special operations, can reduce spawn times from their natural level, and bring out it's biggest toys on a Strike Force level (i.e. Wraithlords, Dreadnoughts, killa Kans, Land Raiders, ect.) They are primarily gathered over time and allow a faction to be more flexible and be able to take on higher risk in its plans.
• Discretionary Resources (Requisition): Personal currency that is used for consumables, elite/hero classes, and upgrades to the Strike Cruiser or bases. Essentially, this resource allows you more personal freedom / independence in the game world. They are earned instantly by killing enemies, following orders, completing an objective, ect.
• Loot (Salvage, Trophies, ect. Gained from executions or other special actions.): Skulls to be placed upon the skull throne, blood for the blood god, teef, spirit stones, gene seed, ect. These items taken from fallen enemies and comrades all serve a purpose requisition or power cannot be justified to reach. They are also much more faction specific:
  • Orks: Can loot ANYTHING, from friend or foe alike, although they receive more salvage and teef from enemies. Though they can loot whatever they want, it essentially just turns into more Dakka and cosmetics.
  • Chaos is entirely offensively based, primarily taking this resource from fallen enemies. Skulls and blood can be taken from allies, and the sheer amount needed will require players to take from everyone.*
  • Space Marines: Gene Seed harvested by Apothecaries. Will not loot anything but Loyalist Marines.Successful retrieval by Apothecaries will reduce spawn time on a global scale.
  • Eldar: Spirit Stones collected from fallen Eldar. The Eldar will not loot anything else. Successful retrieval will reduce the cost of Wraith units.
• *Chaos receives faction specific bonuses depending on what they've returned to their Sorcerers. If they capture enough (10,000's+):
  • Gene Seed: CSM's have massively reduced spawn times.
  • Teef: Hero's / Elite classes cost much cheaper.
  • Tyranid Synaptic Cores: (100,000,000+): Summoning lesser demons is much easier.
  • Spirit Stones: Sorcerer's cost are reduced. The War Council may confer temporary Slaaneshi bonus's on a mass scale (i.e. Feel no Pain)
  • Blood and Skulls: (100,000,000+): Allows Sorcerer's to form a Coven that may collectively summon a Bloodthirster of Khorne to wreak havoc on an apocalyptic scale. (This should happen on an almost daily basis with heavy fighting occurring.)

Economy

- How it Functions -

Critical Resources: Power: should come from bases. Bases should generate their own resources, independent of the faction pool - but then can be channeled into the faction pool if it is connected by supply lines. It should be assumed that there are underground pipelines between points that supply every base with Critical Resource.

Bases should be modular in how they generate those resources, so damaging the output of a base's energy production without taking it completely is possible, as is it's defense. (Bases within bases or "Baseception")

• Bases connected to each other form supply chains, granting some sort of bonus in Critical Resource production.
  • The more links in the supply chain, the greater the bonus to each base.
  • Chains linked to the HQ funnel resources to the entire faction, the longer the chain, the larger the bonus.
  • Control stations to these resources are effectively outposts. Controlling these are essential to keeping the supply lines open and maintaining a faction's economy. Capturing one will sever the supply between two bases until it is recaptured.
  • Sabotage can temporarily disrupt a supply chain, hurting the economy of a faction, as long chains confer bigger bonus's the idea of dangerous behind enemy lines operations is appealing to hurt a juggernaut faction.
  • Critical Resource determines the rate at which a static spawn point regenerates its spawn tickets. A base cut off from the faction's economy will generate new spawn tickets much slower than normally - preventing players from spawning in only one place without needing to be regenerated.

Requisition: Can be added to bases to personally contribute in increasing its defense without having to be there.Requisition should never directly win the war, but it will always help every soldier contribute to it.

• By spending Requisition players will be allowed to teleport or drop to certain locations: it costs much less to do so as a squad than it does alone.

​

Faction Economics

The Orks and Tyranids: Planetary Empire: granted even larger bonus's for creating and maintaining a continuous chain - supporting the idea of creating massive planetary empires that can be maintained with a huge population.

Chaos - Insurgency: Capturing any enemy outpost directs whatever supplies from the link to the nearest Chaos owned territory regardless of distance. If this base is connected to the HQ, it will confer the resource to the entire faction. (The deeper the captured outpost in enemy territory, the larger the reward.)

Space Marines - Kingdoms - Bases not linked to the HQ can still funnel resources to the entire faction so long as it is connected to at least one other base. Holding territory continually will confer a great bonus that diminishes for every base that is connected with it. Supports the idea of Space Marines being Knights - creating tiny kingdoms and holding them at all costs.

Eldar - Webgates - By investing resources into the construction of Webgates, their supply lines cannot be severed or disrupted between two points and will always contribute to the entire faction's resource pool regardless of distance from HQ. There is a minimum distance between sites. Webgates may also transport troops. (More onWebgates later).

Tyranids - Have all of these bonus's and The Shadow of the Warp. They have an underground empire that not only physically assaults the strongest of the factions, but also seizes control of entire supply chains, creating dead zones that will put stress on everyone - the Shadow of the Warp will smother/disrupt all supply that attempts to travel through it's territory - including Eldar Webgates and Chaos insurgency.

Legacy Economics
Everything done in the previous campaign(s) will have an effect on the next. For example, the Orks steamroll over just about everyone in a campaign. They get a large immediate bonus to use for the onset of the next campaign, but because they have (NPC) dedicated forces defending a large (non-active) territory they've already won, they incur an upkeep penalty for the duration of the next campaign. This effect is cumulative and helps all other factions who don't get as large of an immediate bonus at the campaign's onset, be able to have the Economy be an increasingly punishing factor for a faction attempting to monopolize victory in the game. (But not eliminating the possibility of total victory).

TL;DR & Conclusion

A faction's economy will force players away from the zerg as base resources dry up if not properly defended. At the point, shrewd level design will matter to help defenders spread out attackers. Also, I didn't mention this, but having a base needing multiple capture points to be held simultaneously in order to take it will also split up an attacking force.

That's a lot of stuff but I'm not sure exactly how it applies here. Zergs are only focused around the resources that can be obtained through short term gain, and obtain them by presenting such an overwhelming amount of concentrated force in one region that it's a curb-stomp, at the expense of every other area on the continent.

I'm assuming a zerg has the following traits, again, based mostly off of PS2, which has a similar metagame to the one suggested in EC.

• They're made almost entirely out of casual players or guilds playing casually, with no coordination. Player movements are "particulate" and do not follow any form of strategy.
• They have a good 4 to 6 times the population of any other region on the map (minimum!)
• On arrival to an area they usually move right to the spawn area and saturate it in order to farm and speed their takeover of the area. This is usually so one sided the conflict is over within 10 minutes.
• The zerg then sits there farming the spawn point, usually with explosives or some other "spammy" weapon type, until all objectives are achieved and a reward is obtained. They then move to the next point on the map that is controlled by the enemy.
• All other terrain on the continent is ignored. Strategic locations or alternative movement options are ignored. Flanking, sneak attacks, and fortification is not considered. All loadouts used are whatever is most convenient for farming.

So it's not really about the actual type of resource, or how a zerg is constructed, it's about the philosophy of aquisition. Zergs don't earn stuff through fighting, they earn it by applying overwhelming force until the fight is reduced to a resource farm. If force is insufficient, more players arrive until the fight is reduced to farm status. It's quite simply a bunch of players playing for the wrong reasons - and debuffing their resource gain is more of an encouragement to fight for the right reasons than some kind of blow to their nonexistant playstyle.