This thread is about Ultramarines, not Space Wolves! *Shush* I've previously stated on these forums that the reason I love Space Wolves is that they are the only legion I feel that I can enjoy a beer with... yes, my standards are actually that low/simple. Let's take the following roleplay example (it involves Ultramarines, so it's still on topic--I SWEAR ): Question: Hey Space Marine, you want go to have a beer? Space Wolves: Beer?! Pah! You can have your beer; I'll have a real warrior's drink. But--as we pick our poisons (quite literally)--let us sing and tell tales of glorious battle! *Already begins singing on the way to the bar* Dark Angels: Beer?! Who told you about the beer?! *Sighs and pulls out combat knife to silence me* Blood Angels: Beer?! Why have beer when you could have BLOOD! *Begins to look at me with hungry eyes as I back away* Ultramarines: Beer?! Why that goes against the Codex Astartes, page XXX, paragraph XXX, line XXX, AND I QUOTE! *I sneak off as he keeps spouting the awesomeness of the Codex Astartes*
ok i didnt want to be mean. I just love the ultras. But yes the omnibus was boring. Read know no fear
They aren't *that* special when there's (estimated) dozens--if not hundreds--of other Chapters with the same kind of super soldiers--who aren't micro-managers, overbearingly clinical, and "suffering" the burden of having to be SO GREAT & PERFECT. [^_-] *Note: the last bit is from the more staunch of Ultramarine touters (my friend included). The odd part is that I though it was Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children that were obsessed with being perfect.* But Ancient Romans--outside of their engineering & military (and sometimes within it)--were remarkably fallible. Don't get me wrong, the empire was great, but there were cracks under the foundation. These "cracks" are very rarely brought forward in Ultramarine lore/fiction, and thus they come across "generic" and/or "boring" to a lot of people. I'll admit that I haven't read the Ultramarine Omnibus yet; perhaps this character depth will show itself in Graham McNeil's work (this depth that I have yet found elsewhere ). What Killbo_Fraggins mentioned--about how they have used propaganda to hide failures and/or incomplete victories--is actually quite intriguing to me. In comparison, the Dark Angels are/share Knightly in spades, but they are clandestine because they hide a great failure of pride and hubris. Thus, the Ultramarine's knightliness isn't quite enough for everyone to find them cool/interesting; when there's already a group doing the same thing and hiding something very interesting. What Killbo wrote of the Ultramarines (until they were retcon'd by Ward) would be akin to what the Dark Angels have done, but just not at the same magnitude.
Well, you could see that as part of a military operation. They were known as the best among the legions when it came to tactics and unit movements, both in terms of administration and direct warfare. That's even ignoring the fact that any traditional and real-work army officers tend to be infuriated when delays take place. If they ignore it standards slip and discipline fails. You could possibly see it as a mild bit of humour at some of their more infamous sterotypes since Ward did all that damage, or possibly hints at how their whole society works. There are minor bits like that in other books which would lend towards the latter interpretation. Well, while your 1984 comparison might not have been entirely accurate, it would be more fitting to compare them with a benevolent dictatorship. If you do compare Ultramar's general attitude with the propaganda of dictators from throughout history and the propaganda meant to drive their citizens to giving more for their nation, more than a few parallels can be made. The difference here is that the people running the place actually have the people's best interests at heart, but it's still a dictatorship at the end of the day. Well, you could argue an obvious downside is they lack some of the curses and toys which make others so effective. They aren't werewolves, vampires, power armoured ninjas or have elite knowledge about how to combat daemons; what they have is dicipline and tactical capabilities. They're really the all-rounders, so as said before they don't have the strengths other more specialised chapters rely upon, but they lack their weaknesses and have the know-how to make that play to their advantages. At least when not written by Ward, who seems to think they're better at everything than everyone else. The big problem is that the Codex Astartes being their biggest strength and weakness has been met with some derision. McNeill hammered down on this fact a bit too hard in his books and never really offered enough to show why they followed it in the first place save for a couple of books. That might be why some players do have problems with it. Admittedly though, Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine also followed this with some conversations between Titus and Leandros. Well, personally i'd again argue that it ultimately comes down to the writer on that, with the likes of Grant Morrison or (despite his increasingly dark writing) Mark Millar knowing how to plot out stories him and use the character. That'd be getting into an entirely new argument though so i'll just leave this there. Well, those I have already mentioned, Graham McNeill's works and Fall of Damnos are the ones I would personally recommend the most beyond Know No Fear. They both have definite failings in certain areas, but overall they're decent reads. Gav Thrope's novella The Catechism of Hate is fairly good, but it's mostly a short story. If you are going to keep reading the Horus Heresy series, I would recommend Unremembered Empire, which is a very good examination of the Ultramarines and starts to show hints of how things would be following Horus' death. That book does link into a lot of others in the series though, and is a nexus point of a vast number of plots. You're welcome, though people have definitely seen far worse from both pro and anti Ultramarines fans than this. Well, in fairness in that case it was less out of ego and more out of desperation. The daemon M'Kar had proven to be such a great threat that binding him and hiding his location in the hopes he could never be found was really the only option left to them. Admittedly I do not know of any other situations where this was the case. I believe you forfeited that discussion when you failed you counter or even respond to a criticism I made. Please do not derail this thread by bringing it back up in here. If you wish to continue it there you need only say so.
Fair enough. For what it is worth I have no problem with you or anyone else enjoying the new interpretation, I just don't think it's poorly written as it stands.
.................. I just realized I strongly dislike you because of your avatar picture that I just noticed.
