There is almost no way to introduce any meaningful personal "skill-based" gear or class unlocks without also creating perverse incentives for players to do the wrong thing for their teams (but the right thing for themselves).

You then have two linked problems. By incentivising people to play the system, you risk situations where "too many" people get access due to loopholes and for the developers to unwind it punishes everyone who got there legitimately as well.

Also, you create a poisonous feeling within your factions; not necessarily because it happens, but because it could be happening - and would let people off the hook for being outplayed.

"I saw (x) player doing stupid things to go for the skill unlock, earlier. Then we were trying to win a difficult fight, and lost. I bet that's because we had loads of players who wouldn't get involved because it would risk their stats (I can't possibly accept that the enemy played better than me). So I reckon every time we lose a fight its because of players doing this. I'm going to yell at them in the general channel. This is all their fault, stupid noobs trying for their stupid unlocks, what a stupid game system, etc. etc."

I also have a personal gripe with any system that says "Only the best x% of players should get access to gear that gives them an even bigger boost over other players". And the even more snobbish "I don't want bad players or kiddies using plasma weapons".

If you replaced "best x% of players" with "people who pay an extra $40 to unlock it", there'd be a massive outcry. Right? Exactly.

Also, I've yet to see a single supporter of this route also adding "...and I'd happily play through the entire game with only a boltgun or bolt pistol and chainsword myself."

So please, lets not take a route which is going to hack off every player denied access (in this case, the overwhelming majority of everyone) by adding artificial barriers to thump specific players.

It would be far better to use the resource system that achieves the overall goal of not having lots of people in dreadnoughts or terminator armour or toting multimeltas (or other faction equivalents) at any given time, but gives all players the potential to at least try them.

High costs to unlock, spawn and maintain in the field would do it. That way you could spend a couple of months working towards the Terminator armour unlock cost, then a couple of weeks building up requisition in order to field yourself in terminator armour for a crucial half hour.

Worst case scenario under that model? At the climax of a campaign, or any critical battle, you'd get a large chunk of potential winners fielding the strongest things they could.

And you know what, if we get to the final hours of the campaign and I see a squad of Ultramarine terminators stomping towards a position I know I have to hold until our response squad can get there...well, I think that'll lead to more memorable conflicts than occasionally seeing DukeKillemAllXX192, one of the top players by stats on the enemy side, mooching around in his Dreadnought chassis during assaults.

I'm fine with that (your last paragraph) but id like it so that the enemy would horde their resources until the correct moment. The main thing is i dont want to see at least one dreadnought or 5 terminators at any given point during the battle. Id like a drought of terminators and then all of a sudden you get 10 guys in a group leading an assault.

Team communication will be VERY important in this game considering it sounds very focused on following orders and army cohesion.

I want to see a single terminator holding back 100 free to play orks. I want to play that terminator. I want to say, i died because I got too close to those two terminators fighting each other. My night lord should make the decision to fight another day and leave the word bearer in a lurch 'cause..."you mad bro?"...some squad of ultra's decided to save up and play termies together.

I don't want it to be "i died a million times trying to kill that camping termie so I'll just spawn a termie and auto-cannon him to pieces from where Im camping.

Which is what the resource-cost system would deliver, depending on the costs attached. And I'm thinking in terms of 'astronomical'.

You would expect to see the very rare and occasional random appearance of a terminator outside of critical fights, as people may want to get used to it *before* fighting a crucial battle and some people may simply be too impatient to wait once hitting the spawn threshold for the first time.

But what you'd generally see is a hoarding of resource for important situations - which is when you'd see Terminators hit the field. As not everyone would hit the astronomical threshold at the same time, or want to field their own Terminators if their faction had already put its firepower forward, they would still be in a small minority even at the critical times. But that small minority would be terror-inspiring if you were on the receiving end.

One Terminator holding back 100 other players might possibly be a wee bit overpowered, but that's up to the devs to ensure balancing works correctly. I completely agree with the spirit of what you're saying!

Running into Terminators should be much like it is in 40k. A deep, sinking feeling and a sudden desire to run for the hills tactically withdraw before your squad is completely blown to pieces. Although, if you're willing to take the risk to bring them down...oh, the glory that would bring.

As with all balancing mechanics, if you make something rare, temporary and with a vast cost attached, you can justify it giving the player a truly tremendous boost.

If Terminators are relatively straightforward for everyone to unlock and field, or they can be fielded permanently, then they fall into the realms of +10% defensive value for -20% movement speed, or something equally mundane. Otherwise no-one would ever play any other classes once they had access to Terminators and their equivalents.

I agree with what youre saying its just a really hope they dont do it like Planetside 2. Their tanks and vehicles are pretty cheap so you see a ton of them. I just want Behavior to give termies and dreads a higher cost so people need to save to get it. I SUCK at planetside 2 atm (im still new) but i can still spawn a decent amount of vehicles.

This is what i want

This is not what i want.

If there are going to be melee class choices... I can't see anything else in a Space Marine Army that would fit better than a Terminator with only close combat capability. Extra defence in exchange for little / no ranged capability.

Assault Marines proved more than overpowered in Multiplayer of Space Marine ( outside of fighting devastators with an Aimbot and Lascannon ). While they had average defence, the ability to fly high and strike down swiftly across a large distance, negating LOS... outweighed all negatives. As for a Tactical marine with close combat weapon... that moves the same speed as ranged targets, with no ability to close distance, and no extra defence... It's just ridiculous to think anyone would want that. This is Warhammer 40,000... Close combat weapons have more than earned their place in its Universe.

As for the Dreadnoughts place in this game... I'm sure they will implement it well. Space Marine's Multiplayer game mode did it well i felt. As for Dawn of war... a bit of overuse in a single game yeah... but there has to be leeway for a Videogame. It isn't as though they did something completely insane like 50+ Dreadnoughts up at the same time.

I agree that terminators and dreadnoughts should be rare. They should be that last shred of hope or should be used when say another overwhelming unit comes into the fray. Meaning yes they should cost a large amount of resources, and yes there should be a small amount of these units to prevent one side from undoubtedly annihilating the other. However, they should not be weak and should be able to handle more than many others could throw at them; though every unit has a weakness and everyone should have a fighting chance against them if they know what they are doing.

I also saw some posts about the Dark Angels 1st Company having enough terminator suits to almost armor the whole company. While this is true, why would anyone think that the entire first company of the Dark Angels would send all their terminators into one specific battle while they are fighting several other battles elsewhere.

All in all, terminators and dreadnoughts should be an amazing, graceful, eye watering sight in the midst of a battle. Not a common sight where everyone goes "Not ANOTHER terminator."

Even the Dark Angels who field the entire 1st company in terminator armor, and who have passed on terminator armor to their successors in their foundings...

Do not field the entire Deathwing. If the Deathwing in it's entire force is deployed, they are usually outnumbered 5 to 1 and a greater demon for each. in other words... shit has to be bad, for all those termies to be on the ground.


So in saying that, I wouldn't mind seeing 5 Terminators kicking ass in a BIG battle. Maybe a couple squads if all 4 factions are beating each others face in.

do we know anything about how this is going to work or is it all speculation thus far?

If Terminators are included (as they should be,) they need to be highly restricted. As in, you have to spend expensive requisition points for a suit of armor and have unlocked your Crux Terminatus in some fashion before you're allowed to use it. Also have a hard cap of how many may be active at a single time so that it cannot be spammed and has to be used tactically (as it's name implies.)

You really want someone to fear it. Every faction should have that kind of unit where you curse under your breath when you see a good player using it and it directly affects the course of the battle.

Same thing with Dreadnaughts. Rare but powerful and limited, even moreso then Terminator armor. Both have their downsides in mobility and the like, so they'd still have to be smartly used or you basically waste them.