Yeah and characters in book and games with SM`s as protagonist are clad in plot armor. So you better drop that argument too. In short you and I don`t have arguments. Good day sir!
So back when EC was supposed to have F2P ork boyz who were stated by the devs that they'd be balanced such that it'd take roughly 5 boyz to defeat 1 marine/eldar/other-paid-for-class in order to keep it more fluff-friendly... that was the EC devs giving space marines plot armor?
Its people like you and your misguided powerfantasies that really try to ruin orks for everyone. An ork is more than capable of killing a marine in 1v1 combat using just a knife IF the sm is caught off gaurd. An ork is waaay stronger than a gaurdsman going off the sole reason of orks being resistant to las weaponry and being tough because they were designed to fight NECRONS. You know necrons right? Those guys that show up outa no where and pretty much paste everything they see. If you are going off TT remember those numbers are based on more than just pure strength. They take into consideration skill (something orks decidedly lack but SM have in spades) accuracy (ditto) and several other factors. Just because all the SM bolter porn out there says SM can't ever lose doesn't make that true. It is all garbage writen to appease bolter porn power fantasies and thereby bolster sales due to SM being the most popular faction in 40k. I can go and find a bunch of times an ork wrecked a marine if you like. In fact great example was in the Rynn's world book. A squad of marines got cocky thought orks couldn't hurt them before they could take cover and proceded to get insta killed by one ork with a big guns. Boom all dead shot to pieces. Then the main character being a main character wins the fight, but funny enough it wasn't through teh powers of teh awesome it was by picking apart his opponet with a knife piece by piece until it was weakened enough for him to finish it. He still got smashed pretty good in the process. Orks are canon fodder in books because writers are lazy. In lore they are canon fodder when their boss uses them as such. Even then they usually inflict heavy casualties or damage and comw back refreshed ready to fight again.
I don't like space marines. I'm actually an ork and Imperial Guard fan. In this thread, I'm half remarking at how anti-fluff EC is, and half making a case for a future with playable IG on account of ork boyz being balanced equal to space marines (meaning there's no reason stormtroopers can't be balanced against space marines either). I'd be more interested in orks in EC if they weren't so contrary to the fluff by being boyz (instead of nobz at least) and if ork players weren't so annoying with the stupid attempts at ork speak. THAT ruins orks for everyone. I'm sure if a space marine is asleep and tied up an ork boy can 1v1 them. But obviously if there are only 1,000 space marines in a chapter, and chapters are spread out across the galaxy and rarely commit more than a squad or two to any engagement, and ork Waaaghs! number in the hundreds of thousands to many millions strong, it's mathematically impossible for space marines to be anything but dominant against orks. Space marines, which take decades to train/grow, would have been wiped out thousands of years before 40k if a single ork boy (of which there are billions upon billions plaguing Imperial worlds) were a serious threat to them. How could a squad of marines possibly deep strike in to kill a warboss and his nobz, if So even ignoring the fluff (hilarious I'm writing this in an forum ostensibly for 40k fans) you're wrong about the danger an ork boy poses to a marine. A single squad of marines can cut through hundreds of boyz and proceed to butcher an ork warboss and its retinue of nobz with minimal casualties. And if they couldn't, there'd be absolutely no reason for them to exist. If that sounds like a power fantasy, blame Games Workshop. And no, I am not going off of tabletop. I have explicitly stated more than once that the balance in any individual game is not representative of the fluff (although Space Marine captures the marine vs. ork dynamic well). What matters is the codex fluff, and in my opinion the RPGs like Only War, as well as decent novels like 15 Hours. As for the rest, orks are cannon fodder for the same reason Imperial Guard are cannon fodder -- that's how they were written. You may find that lazy writing for some reason. Okay. Personally, I like orks a lot. I like the idea of ork boyz being chaff that dies in droves but takes losing/dying in stride, and if they happen to win they get bigger and meaner. That, to me, is good writing. Same way Imperial Guard being chaff is compelling, as they're regular guys with crappy armor/guns in a universe of Mary Sue power fantasies, and yet they keep on trucking. You seem to have made the mistake in thinking I'm taking a side here, but the truth is I just want to see EC be as accurate to the fluff as possible. And ork boyz 1v1'ing marines is absolutely not accurate, and it is super weird that I have to explain this to multiple people. Does nobody read the codices anymore?
Problem with how you want it is that ruins a game. Just like Space marine was a terrible game because it was completely over the top with its 1v entire army bull it pulled. If a marine gets ina fight with multiple orks he stands a very high chance of getting hit in a way or spot he isn't goi g to recover from. This is because orks are probably stronger than them than they are without power armor. Orks in a fight aren't slow either they are just not skilled. Sometimes the savage berserker bests the skilled duelist. It happens. If you turn the orks into canon fodder no one is gonna play them. The few that try won't be able and quit. It's just that simple. Also no an IG is not equal to an ork unless we are talking specialist units or the companies who are hardened by death worlds. IG keep orks at range because the second orks get close it is a friggen blood bath. Not saying IG are worthless though. This is 40k everything is super powerful (beyond hivers and weak cultists of course) A single gaurdsman can kill a SM easily with the right gear. The things that seperates the SM from others is their skill and mental ability to perform tasks faster than regular humans. This isn't something you can replicate in a human(the player) who ISNT a SM. So that alone kinda explains why orks can easily 1v1 in this game tbh. Hell I think the eldar would kick everyone's asses if we really wanna be technical about it. They are far superior to SM in terms of armament. So when you throw the jumbers that we have into the game then they should be vutting through everyone like chaff. But they don't because again balance in a game. The IG just won't work sorry. They would die in one hit to pretty much anything including a crappy ork rapid slugga. You would never be able to field enough players to cover that weakness. I geuss they could break immersion further and just make them balanced but you yourself said you don't like orks being able to 1v1 marines how would doing it with gaurd be any better. And if you REALLY want a good reason as to why the EC orks are so good look earlier in the thread. We explain how different ork Waaaggghhhs can have different strengths. Some waaaggghhh might have so much fighting and success that the basic boys are as big and strong as nobs in an inactive ork force. Orks are relative within their own area and war being fought. Look at the Octarius sector. The orks have stalled out the Nids pretty hard there. Not to many other factions seem to do that vety well without blowing up major swaths of imperial space.[/QUOTE]
The ork classes being slugga/shoota nobz instead of boyz would "ruin the game"? Note that I'm not saying orks should be made weaker, but rather that they should be replaced with nobz. The paid-for classes, when "free-to-waaagh" was still a thing, were supposed to be nobz. The original plan was for them to be nobz. Presumably the only reason they're boyz instead is because they modeled the boyz for the F2P stuff, then changed gears, axing the F2P and deciding they didn't want to also create nob classes, so they said "fuck it" and made boyz the default (rather than underpowered, free) classes. And again, stormtroopers are easily more powerful than ork boyz are, and so if they're fine with ork boyz being equal to marines, surely an Imperial Guard side with stormtrooper classes would be fine. Although to be fair, a regular guardsman is comparable to a shoota boy, and a Catachan guardsman is comparable to a slugga boy, so even if they didn't want to go with stormtroopers, it'd be fine from a fluff sense. Well, not fine, but the precedent has been set by making boyz equal to marines. The thing that separates space marines from others is literally everything. Even if a space marine were unarmed and unarmored it would be more than a match for an ork boy. They're much bigger than ork boyz, significantly faster, and vastly more skilled in melee combat. Strength/toughness are about the same, but in every other respect, marines are superior. This is how they justify how long it takes, and how many initiate/scout marine deaths it takes for even a single space marine to develop. They're super rare and super Does that sound like a power fantasy? Well it is, but that's 40k. Take it up with GW. Oh, and space marine was pretty damn accurate in terms of the space marine vs. ork balance.
