Oh my goodness I already had this conversation get away from me. If I finish my crap that covers spread and recoil and how degrees are impacted by distance we can have this talk.
Apologies I hadn't read the entire thread, I think I said the same thing to you the last time you posted these calculations and you conceded my point then, however you continue to use the stats as if they somehow show how excellent the shoota is as a weapon when compared to others, which is false.
No, I use it to show that the shoota, while lower in damage per shot than the bolter, is higher in damage per second because of the RoF, which I posted about above as well. As for aiming and all that, yes it matters, but in regards to the shoota I still don't struggle with it. The recoil is a manageable element. And there opinions differ and let's leave it. Also concede is the wrong word, I'm entirely to arrogant and self-assured for that to be appropriate. I acknowledge that the numbers aren't everything, but they are also a very important part of the weapon (the numbers are everything actually, you just need more numbers). Actually been a good week for this topic because I've been playing Orks and I love the shoota.
I think the issue with those numbers isn't so much that they're incomplete, but they're not taking into account two major ork disadvantages that push all the other factions' damage well past what +32 health will ever accomplish, or what any wargear could ever compensate for. Even more important than accuracy is headshot ratio, and orks innately take more incidental headshots, so against orks, all weapons capable of headshots will, both in individual fights and over the course of a match, perform better against orks than any other race. A single extra headshot will deal more extra damage than the +10hp orks innately get, and it doesn't come back like marine armor does. In terms of effective HP, if a marine regens his armor even once in a single fight, his armor meant more than an orks health did. I know we get it back at crates, but that's post fight, equivalent to a respawn, and painboys aren't equipped for mid-fight healing barring the giant green lanterns. Its a fact ork weapons miss more, and orks are easier to hit, AND easier to headshot. So in a vacuum ork TTK is competitive, right in the middle as your tables show, and that would be fine if that were the case. But it isn't. I know it's impossible to take everything into account, but it just doesn't work like that. These things do matter, and they do affect gameplay significantly. I'm not saying to do the math, what I'm saying is dropping numbers from a vacuum that show equality before taking in external factors twists the knife further in against orks when everyone knows we come out at a loss game mechanics and design wise.
Orks are actually pretty decent. They are considerably easy to play the infantry game. They can dish out walls of dakka vety effectively. They have great access to melee, even at lower tiers. Their tanks are massively offensive oriented. Very little defense. The Orks are tough, have a lot of hp, have quite a bit healing, poison, the best grenades in the game and some awesome loadouts. I think that's the main problem with Orks. They've got a lot of options. More than any other race tbh, and people are split between performance and flavor with them. On one hand, people want to win, so they build competitive builds. Making some Ork loadouts honestly garbage by comparison. But that's the price Orks pay, you can always remain unpredictable, and that in itself is a hidden strength that takes experience and experimentation to figure out and use effectively.
Ork HP may not regen, but they get better HP trinkets for cheap compared to other factions, and early on too. Means you get to be as tanky as a marine 1 time, with more LP for goodies, where as marines get to have more sustainable durability at a higher LP cost that restricts loadouts. Ork weapons don't miss more just because, that's the user/situation, can't talk about that in a vacuum. They're not any easier to hit than a marine for sure, their hitbox is just a different size. They're easier to headshot, but take less headshot damage and have a smaller head hitbox size. You're cherry picking dude. Even if Orkz aren't performing up to par, cherry picking isn't going to help the Orkz where they need it, it will just make everything worse.
I miss more lately just wanna throw that out there. Server latency has doubled for me after the last couple of patches and it is super frustrating. ADAD has become way more annoying now that I cant reliably track. Plus all those rokkit and kannon shots that magically pass through target now when they didnt before. Arggen blarg this is an irritating problem that I'm not sure how to fix.
The shoota is a great weapon IMO too, I just dislike misuse of stats DPS is entirely correlated to accuracy of the weapon, so you can say that DPS is higher in theory. I don't struggle with aiming the shoota either (if lag isn't too bad) but I believe that's probably because I've used it so much I naturally time my shots to keep accuracy high (which of course lowers the ROF) or I have learnt the most likely spread effects. I completely agree with you that stats are everything, but if they are limited and taken in isolation they become warped and twisted to show something that isn't necessarily true.
Marines have better armor trinkets than orks, so that brings it back to my argument that armor, while not better in full health -> dead matches, outshine straight up health if the marine can take cover just once and regen before continuing(barring crate healing, as I said before). This is why armor costs more LP, or get less Armor for the same LP, whichever way you think of it. Marines tend to higher armor, orks tend to higher health. Even if marine profiles have the same surface area as an ork, the headshot location means orks will miss more. Ork heads are very close to center of mass. Bullets aimed for the head that miss will likely hit the ork anyway, not necessarily reducing damage done, but getting less bonus damage. So bullets aren't wasted, they're just not doing max damage. For an ork on the other hand, aiming for a marine head is not very close to the marine center of mass at all, meaning shots that go wide while aiming for the head will do no damage at all in more cases. Combined with already having to field less accurate weaponry, this makes it twice as punishing. Question to the non-ork players since I pretty much only play ork. Can you shoot the end of a loota gun and deal damage to the loota? Or do you still have to make direct contact with just the ork portion? If you can shoot a loota weapon and hurt the loota, my point goes doubly so for them, since at the very least ork loota profiles are twice as large as any other infantry in the game. I'm not(or rather it was not my intention) really cherry picking, so much as I was building off of the sub-conversation that was already in progress. What are some things we're not taking into account?
Two questions. Did the Burning Lascannon get a nerf? I managed to survive it on my Loota with it barely touching my health just armor. Did they reduce Zzap Gun damage, or increase fortification health? Quadguns now take 11 shots with the Zzapgun to kill.
