shoota is better then bolter as far as im concerned. ut thats personal preferance. try using a venerable shoota with a drum mag, stabilizing grip, and heavy barrel.
I think tye bolter is better tbh. Shoota is good for latency compensation but in the right hands bolters are OP. I have seen a number of lsm players with long barrels break 40 kills a match consistantly due to low lag. Deffguns got inderectly nerfed with the vehicles not killing occupants on death now. Headshot multiplier is negated by our lower ttk and being easier to hit. As well as how much backstab damage there is (seriously t8red of being one shot by almost all melee from behind) Our pistols are dank though. I started using pokkit just for fun had so so success but it still needs work. Also the dead shiny isnt shiny!!! Da fuq is up with that!
i also heavily prefer ork vehicles. trukk is better then a rhino, its faster, reaches top speed quicker, and if you are halve way decent at driving (rare i know) you can powerslide around corners very quickly. only downside is how top heavy it is and how high the profile it has, in harkus its actually so damn tall it catches on one of the vehicle spawn gates. also it has lower manuverability in tight spaces going slow, being unable to turn in place.
Ball is in your court, you pick something. You saying I'm wrong means you think there are some things orks are better at all other races in the game. There are some things orks have that may be better than marines, but most of that is outshined by eldar. For the record, I didn't say everything was worse, I said basically everything is worse. Orks do have a couple weapons that are decent (shoota is decent, but eldar rifles are better. If anything rifles are break even, neither worse nor better, but different), perhaps even best in class, but the number of disadvantages severely outweighs the advantages for our race.
I think its an over abundance of little things. Aiming bugs out leaving hip fire accuracy while aiming down the sights, issues with vaulting/bracing interactions (everyone has them but they feel more noticable on ork), turn radius is way too wide (marines also have this but not quite as bad), the charge guns inerupting mid charge in many scenarios (near walls, enemies, allies, randomly when getting shot which is weird), the klaw is still kinda meh which makes ork av less reliable, dodge roll I farme doesnt last long enough or travel far enough to be of much use, uniques still missing (I'm sure time will fix this one), some over costed gear making somethings just un usable, we go down awfully fast to back attacks, melee animations are slightly slower/shorter (big deal with swords causing super skating animations), some deffguns have cosmetic features that actually block los when trying to aim making range counter attacks less effective, ork ordinance is a joke when trying to move anywhere making assaulting maps like harkus a nightmare. I'm not saying SM and eldar dont have their problems but orks have so many little things that they add up to huge things (except klaw thats a huge one all on its own)
Lets start with what Boss Jesse said. Ork Trukks. Advantages: 1. Faster Acceleration(also a disadvantage, see D3, 4a, 6) 2. higher top speed(also a disadvantage, see D3, 4a, 6) 3. Higher gun (also a disadvantage, see D2) Disadvantages: 1. Twice as tall(easier to shoot, harder to hide) 1a. rear armor surface area much larger. (Ork trukk "heads" are 4 times larger than rhinos) 1b. Rear armor not sloped down (can't tuck the back of the trukk in places others can to prevent rear armor hits) 2. Cannot shoot at attackers meleeing the trukk. Higher gun means larger deadzone next to trukk 3. Can't turn as well because of speed 4. Can't turn in place (car steering, must be moving to turn) 4a. Results in getting easily stuck 4b cannot rotate to show front armor to attackers 4c cannot turn with grav gun because of car steerings 5. Gunners vision will be blocked by trukk rear when aiming low enough 6. Incredibly easy to tip over Even: 1. Actual gun is equal to rhino I think, but don't know for sure. If they're truly just grafted Storm Bolter and Big shoota, then marines win that too as storm bolter is superior to the big shoota 2. Vehicle health equal to rhino Besides grav distinctly working better against orks specifically because of their driving scheme, this doesn't even take into account outside influences like meltas and overall ork vehicle lifespan in a match being much lower due to enemies having superior AV. So from my count, our 3 perceptible advantages are compensated for by negative effects associated with them, all of which the disadvantages are way worse than the advantages 2 are even, but the gun is worse than the eldar and the health is better than eldar so that sorta breaks even there 6(11 if you count sub categories) are disadvantages. -3 if you negate advantages, even though the disadvantages are worse.
Shoota has more dps and is as accurate with the heavy barrel. It also has much larger clip size. The only downside is recoil, which can be managed, and smoke comes from fire, which can be annoying. Klaw needs buff. Agreed. Agreed. Apoth grenade is better. Doesn't make the Pain Boy one bad, but it should be reduced in size. I agree, this is annoying, but luckily you have a pistol (Sparky slugga) which out dpses bolters and remains fairly accurate. Many do not know, but you can aim pistols. Either change your keybindings, or hit lockon and the other aim button aim at the same time. However, I would not mind Pain Boyz getting choppa blades and shootas. Kannon, rocket, and zappy. Believe it or not, rockets kill vehicles about as fast, maybe even faster, than meltas. Your headshot multiplier is also less (1.5 as opposed to 2.0). Orks are wider, but less tall, do you really think it is bigger? Or even that much bigger that it makes a big difference in a team fight? I don't. Waaagh is good on skirmishes, especially defense, and terrible on hold the line and fortress. It should be removed from those maps.
The trukk big shoota is stronger than rhino storm bolter actually. Trukks take more skill to master but can out perform rhinos. Trukks do take more damage though vs opponent equivs just due to melta damage vs rokkits. Trukks get stuck next to walls a lot due to being unable to turn against a surface. Rhinos are easier to finesse out of these situations than a trukk. Higher firing point is better vs opponents in cover but makes defense and hiding a vehicle much more difficult. Bright yellow and red paintjobs don't help there either. The random tiping when even slightly connecting with environment is a big problem. Again though sm vehicles have their own problems like sponson bolters clipping everything (shared by gunwagon big shootas) and flipping around if the corners clip anything.
Let's touch upon those disadvantages, since your advantages I agree with, even though there are advantages missing there. 1.) Twice as tall, harder to hide. Also, higher shooting platform, so better firing angles/overwatch. So you forgot that. 1 a+b) Basically both are the same thing, Harder to hide your rear armor. Ok, fair enough, but let's take a look at the other disadvantages to see where we end up. 2.) Higher gun position, and not being able to shoot melee units at the Tank. This goes for all transports, none of them can shoot melee units at the vehicle (except Eldar vehicles of course who can just ram them). And the larger deadzone? Have you actually tested the deadzones to be sure of this, and to quantify the difference? Even if there was a difference, it isn't large by any margin. Take that as you will. Still, this "disadvantage" of not being able to shoot melee enemies is shared by CSM, LSM, and Orkz. It isn't just the Orkz. 3.) This is silly, can't turn as well because of speed. It might be un-Orky but...slow down. So... 4.) Fair enough, car steering sucks. Now to be fair, I'm not sure if that's true or not in game, but if it is, I can support changing the steering. 4c.) Grav gun arguments are bullshit. You can't complain because a weapon does what it is supposed to do. Also, all enemy factions of LSM deal with a Grav cannon, not just Orkz, so it's not something they soley deal with. The steering doesn't matter, a GC hitting your vehicle is going to be a pain. Also, don't argue balance about your tank with a single weapon group from a single faction, that has nothing to do with your vehicle. If the Grav is the problem, argue about the Grav in a separate topic, not the truck. 5.) This is literally the same argument as point 2, restricted firing angles. Also, rhinos have a large LARGE deadzone behind them due to the placement of the Stormbolter on the forward area of the vehicle. So this point is rather moot/already brought up in 2. 6.) Again...slow down, we're just talking about player error here. An Ork truck doesn't tip over at lower speeds than any other vehicle (except Eldar...again), they only tip over when they're hauling top speed (which is higher than a rhino's top speed or acceleration). On your even list... 1.) The Big Shoota on your Truck is closer to a Heavy Bolter on LSM, not our Stormbolter. In fact, a Heavy Bolter, and your Big Shoota, are actually better because you can damage other Transports like the Rhino. The Rhino can't damage other armor at all. Also, the HB/Big Shoota is just better than a Stormbolter when mounted on a vehicle due to having better accuracy than a SB, the negatives associated with carrying those weapons as infantry aren't there (such as brace up and such), increased capacity and damage potential, better dropoff distances (at least in the HB case, not sure on the Big Shoota, will check later), and etc. Trust me, in this point, you aren't even with marines, Orkz are plain better. Again, at least in this particular point. 2.) Yup, equal to Rhino. No reason it should be more or less. The next part of your argument is about Gravs, not Trucks, and Trucks don't suffer any worse from Gravs than any other wheel/track based vehicle. As for your counts, they're off if you take into account the arguments here. The counts balance out, as if we COULD balance around such a simple plan of "plus one minus one". By the way, that's what I meant by bigger picture, you can't balance around a tally system.
