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Why haven't space marines tried this with thier recruiting?

Discussion in 'Space Marines' started by Caentyr, Sep 28, 2017.

  1. Caentyr Caentyr Subordinate

    1. Select prepubescent boy for applicant
    2. harvest "genetic material" of applicant and put it into cup/jar BEFORE hormonal therapy and other biological alterations
    3. Freeze cup/jar
    4. Continue applicants training and initiation. If applicant does not survive initiation process, Dispose of applicant and "genetic material" and start over at step 1. If not resume to step 5.
    5. Thaw "Genetic material"
    6. Acquire surrogate and impregnate with thawed "genetic material"
    7. Wait for Surrogate to give birth.
    8. If newborn is female, wait until childbearing age to use as surrogate for step 6 before start over at step 1. If newborn is male resume to step-9.
    9. Since the newborn-male carries 50% of the "fathers" DNA. We can assume that the newborn-male has at least a +50% chance to survive space marine initiation like the father did (Assuming the process is the same) This would also apply to things like the space wolves curse of the wulfen and the blood angels red thirst/black rage since survival of this relies on the genetic composition of the marine in question.
    10. Wait until newborn male's "Genetic material" is available for harvest and then start over at step 2.


    With this system you can gradually reduce (This is easily a yearly or more process) the chances of space marine applicants rejecting gene seed while also equipping applicants with genes that are less likely to contract crucial geneflaws.

    So why doesn't the space marines do this?
  2. Anvil The-Forge-Dragon Arkhona Vanguard

    If I had to guess it's because the process is too close to cloning. Cloning being looked upon with spite and prejudice in the imperium.
  3. Caentyr Caentyr Subordinate

    Why?
    Is it because cloning is fabius bile's thing?
  4. Anvil The-Forge-Dragon Arkhona Vanguard

    If memory serves it had something to do with attempts to clone guard regiments from leaders like Macharius and a few cloning attempts before the horus heresy kicked off. The constant mutated and deffective clones were pretty much seen as abominations and the ones that weren't turned out to be unlucky or failures in some other way. Now it's regarded by most with superstitious fear and it is considered a dark practice.. For my own opinion on the matter, given how the mechanicus views flesh and has a certain distaste for it actively creating something from flesh is likely not on their to-do list. Even if they have a whole branch dedicated to the biological I've little doubt the magos biologis aren't really well provided for in terms of experimentation.
    hotpocketpotatopants likes this.
  5. Zael Zael Well-Known Member

    Because there's more to becoming a Space Marine than genetic compatibility with the geneseed.

    1.
    A person is more than its genetic information. There's also epigenetics, and those partially depend on the environment we grow up in.

    2.
    The Space Marines are looking for recruits who are fighters, who are survivors, who are mentally strong. What's the point of a soldier who has the body but the wrong attitude?

    3.
    It could honestly be that the Space Marines have not thought about this. The process you describe is very close to raising a family.
    3a.
    Space Marines are asexual and maybe something like raising a family has never come to their mind.
    3b.
    You would get genetic bonds between Space Marines. However, Space Marines do not consider themselves as fathers or sons: The geneseed replaces the old bonds and forms a new "family": the Chapter/Legion. With the geneseed, the Space Marines of a Chapter/Legion consider each other "Brothers". Space Marines from another Chapter/Legion are considered "cousins". This is their new family.

    The process you describe would create a second, parallel family-structure outside of the Chapter/Legion, and that could be considered a perversion of Space Marine culture.
    Vaanes likes this.
  6. Caentyr Caentyr Subordinate

    1. Assuming it's the same chapter doing this, they will all be recruiting from the same planet. (Unless the chapter is like the ultramarines, but as long as they don't mix the samples/surrogates from different worlds, they should be ok.)

    2.Genetics covers FAR more than just the body my friend. It also covers the mind due the abundance, or lack of, neurotransmitters in the brain. Hence changing the personality/mentalsharpness/"attitude" that is best for space marine recruitment. It can also affect how efficiently/or NON-eficiantly the nerves act. Causing resistance to pain.

    Genetic programming baby! There are NO limits to it.

    3b. They can still technically have their "new family" so long as nobody tells them where their "Genetic material" went during initiation. They might get suspicious when they notice that so many of their members look the same, but that's about it. The goal of this process would be to create the perfect recruit that has little to no chance of failing space marine initiations.
  7. Covi Doomness1000 Recruit

    I think the main reason they don't do that is because it would devote a ton of the chapter's resources to the birthing and rearing of children when that's literally done for free on the countless worlds with countless population. Its way cheaper to harvest potential recruits en-mass than it would be to set up a structure whereby we hope that the children have the same martial value as the parents. That was one of the problems with old monarchies, it was assumed that the offspring of good leaders would inherently make good leaders. But there is more to a person than mere genetics.
    The limits are what genetics don't affect (and a given civilization's knowledge about genetics which given the amount of horrible mutations in the imperium I can't help but think they don't have much of).
    You can genetically engineer a brain to have the same dna as someone with a lot of neurons, but:
    1- Neurons aren't purely genetic. Like muscle mass they are earned through labor (mental labor in this case). And while you may successfully get a genetic makeup that predisposes you to have an easier time making neurons than the average person, that doesn't guarantee that they will (environment plays a huge roll in this).
    2- Just because someone has the predisposition to have more neurons doesn't mean they'll develop the same way. Me knowing math does not predispose my children to knowing math. And it may very well be that what not only makes a good candidate, but what helps that candidate survive the process could be a fortitude and endurance provided by experience/environment.

    Yes, you could then set up an environment that was perfectly designed to get the right results so that you can have your 50% chance at success. But once again, that taps deeply into the chapter's resources. You could spend excessive resources genetically managing your potential recruits to get a 50% success chance each, or you could spend nothing more than the fuel to get to a planet and back to get 100x the potential recruits, at which point having a lower acceptance rate doesn't really make a difference.


    But, I would love to see someone write the lore for a chapter that does that (probably without the mecanicum knowing).
  8. Necromancer Rivindesh Subordinate

    [​IMG]

    To much child raising, plus it goes into the realm of the Daemonculaba with the mothers and all. I don't believe the chapters got the time, patience, and resources to be making "genetic cattle" anyways.

    I'm sure there is something the Imperium finds heretical in here anyways.

    Besides, why make new space marines when the dead are more than willing to serve.
  9. Trust me Zeal is spot on on this. There are definitely limits ;) let me tell you this as a biochemist/geneticist. Of course there can be genetic predispositions which affect certain aspects of the neuronal network, but as Zael stated there are also epigentic markers which change they way the genome is used.
    Lets compare it with music, the notes are the hardcoded genetic information but without the information of the beat you can play the notes differently resulting in different interpretations of the same song. The information of the beat is an imprint of the environment constantly changing but also being inherited, so environmental cues can have an effect on how the song is played in following generations even though the song stays the same (excluding mutations).
    Best is also to look up research results on genetically identical twins. They can have differently developed brain function and one can be more talented in playing music while the other might be more talented in other things.

    If all the information you imply is hard coded then we wouldn't need the longest childhood of all animals ;) its used to learn and shape our personality.

    And of course the process of generating Space Marines is dependent on the authors knowledge of genetics as well as his/her creativity to imagine new things. That's why we have what we have.

    If we want to think of another process in the lore, then I think the most efficient would be genetic engineering by genome editing, e.g. in analogy to the CRISPR/Cas9 system. You just take any random human genetic information (can be literally anyone) you edit all the genes needed to create a suitable aspirant. You include synthetic genes to enhance the genetic information and make them compatible to grafted synthetic bioengineered organs or which will create new organs themselves. Then you chemically place all the necessary epigenetic landmarks on the genome, remove the old genetic material from the starting individuals germ-line and place the new genetic information in there or directly do the stuff in the retort and grow your needed legion. Of course you need to train them still and do hypno-conditioning to press all the knowledge they need into their poor brains. Btw, if you let them still sexually reproduce you could link the essential genes for your legion, which should never cross out to so called "gene drives" which forces those genes to be inherited (current knowledge is a 97% efficiency of transferring a gene to the progeny thus overcoming your above mentioned 50%).

    Well its basically how the Primarchs were generated, possibly the Custodes, Thunder warriors and very first hundreds of space marines too. Hand crafted by the Emperor and his own retinue of cults who had knowledge about genetic manipulations. Later space marines were created by the help of the Selenar Cults on Luna (and [but only in german so far]), which were pressed into compliance by the Emperor in the need to mass produce genetic engineered humans and which were most likely involved in the near destruction of the III. legions gene seed prior to their compliance. Its not written anywhere but it is my personal believe that the Selenar cults cloned hundreds of thousands of Space Marines to be able to generate the masses the Emperor need to start the great crusade (because the Selenar cults seem to be clones themselves).

    Interestingly, the proto-Imperial guard and especially there the "Geno Five-Two Chiliad" had kind of a genetic program you were suggesting but on the maternal side. Teenage girls upon selction for the rank called as "Uxor" had their ovaries removed which were frozen in cryogenic genbanks and used to breed warriors. Although genetically modified these warriors were no clones and breed to be warriors.
  10. Brikksmasha DoomedOne Drill Abbott

    Its kinda sounds awfully like that sick shit that Iron Warriors "Apothecary" came up with/

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