God no, I wouldn't call them innocent either! But it is true that almost no one knew what was really going on within these camps, they've only been told that the prisoners were being "reeducated" to become "good citizens" (the irony here is that those same camps were guarded by former criminals). And I didn't said that it was just the SS and the Gestapo that committed those war crimes alone either: the Wehrmacht, which was including a large number of mere citizens, has also its part of responsability - on the other hand a few members of the SS were also ignoring the fate of those who were sent to the camps and didn't take part in the numerous war crimes either (e.g. Rochus Misch). Also, if you had read me more carefully you would have noticed that I was essentially blaming Staline for not valuing human lives (even these of his own troops) and actually allowing the war crimes committed by the Red Army to happen, not the soviets in their whole; it would be kinda gawky from me to condemn a whole country for its historical misdeeds while arguing in the way that not everything is black and white when it comes to nation/race/whatever. So yes, orders have been given to limit unecessary violence as much as possible, but it's not like if Staline really cared about such matters and I would actually not be surprised that the Allies forced him to adopt such restraint (at Yalta he suggested to get executed thousands of captured German officers without further ado), and as you said most of the soviet soldiers were indisciplined conscripts and atrocities inevitably occurs. All this to say that it's quite harsh and gauche to judge a whole group on the base of some individuals deeds. I may have not choose the best example to illustrate my point (and I realize that I could have picked a less sensible example for that). Some might say that I overdow, especially when it comes to a fictional universe, but what I believe is that in crucial cases as in unimportant matters we actually use the same critical thinking (it's not like if I really cared about the eldar "good"/"bad" orientation, I'm just curious to know the people reactions if we had to turn some specific situations into real ones).
Why? Well, Starship Troopers (the book) would be the first example as to how I liked that style. The second would be the movie Aliens.
Lets not forget, back in the day the story of the Imperium was the ONLY real lore we had. The Horus Heresy was covered in just a few pages in the rulebook. Now there is a whole line of novels delving through the era with a fine tooth comb. I think you will find a lot of the Old School Rogue Trader types have a soft spot for the Astartes IB
Personally, I'd rather avoid those, given their rather ... "colourful" version of events. I'm just glad the tabletop books continue to contradict them. >_> Besides, the Horus Heresy is all about Space Marines and only worsened the focus on them. For examples where Black Library novels have actually expanded perception of the setting towards other factions/races, I'm sure there must be better examples. Such as Gav Thorpe's Eldar stuff, or various short stories collected in the anthologies. The Allies generally didn't care much as well - the Royal Air Force was deliberately targeting civilian population centers with fire bombs in order to inflict as much collateral damage as possible in a campaign of vengeance for the bombing of London and other British cities. Not that I can condemn them; it's a shame that civilians had to suffer, but I'm looking at this with a "you reap what you sow" mentality. And it is for the same reason that I am accepting Soviet atrocities as a consequence to the ones committed by German forces. What you said is right; Stalin didn't care - that's also why you can't say he was forced, though. Order #006 was issued by Marshal Rokossovsky, with Stalin neither interfering for nor against it. He was indifferent, which is why I find it odd to blame him for the war crimes committed by the less disciplined elements of the Red Army. That'd be like, say, blaming Bush or Obama for certain incidents in Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe the true responsibility lies with the officers in the field, who may either ignore/condone or prevent dishonourable behaviour by their troops. Unless they are specifically ordered to commit an atrocity and it is part of a strategic doctrine by the military as a whole - then the leadership is at fault indeed, and it is the soldier's duty as a human being to refuse to carry out such orders. Not that I want to defend Stalin, mind you. He was the worst leader the Soviet Union ever had. But if I'd condemn him, I would do so for the political terror with which he "cleansed" the ranks of the party and the military of anyone he feared would oppose him, directly betraying Soviet ideals. Nah, I think you have a point! Although I still think that a group may indeed be judged if you notice a pattern. After a certain point, the question should turn from "who is guilty" to "who is innocent". And as an in-universe proverb goes, there is no such thing as innocence. Only degrees of guilt.
The sixth edition codices have been brought into line with the HH books. If you check the beginning of the CSM codex, you'll find that it now contains details previously found only in the novels.
Though of course the Ecclesiarchy has their own share of badassery. *knockknock* "Greetings, citizen! Have you heard the good news of our lord and savior, the God-Emperor of Mankind?"
I prefer them because of the variety of the lore. Im a big Space Wolf fan but I just learned about the Mantis Warrior chapter and now they are one of my favorite chapters. Each one is different with a rich history with different values and challenges.
I begin WH40K with rogue traders and mainly play Epic scale. The Eldar of WH40K where intended as the Dark Elves. No one was ethical in this timeline (Chaos was worst but that it). So Eldar and Dark Eldar mean the same thing for me. Therefore I don't see why they created this faction of Dark Eldar? It was not needed and damage the balance of their world lore (in my very personnal opinion). But again as Lynata pointed out, you can have your own vision of the WH40K as nothing is canon. So in my vision The Eldar are the Dark Eldar. There are no good guys in WH40K as I see it, unless you get your own vision where there are. The Marines are psychopaths. The bottomline is that, as we human do, you consider that your side is the good one, that why you fight for it even if from an outside point of view it is the worst evil in the Universe. Still for you you are the Good Ones. Even the Chaos Space Marine think they fight to free the Imperium from the oppression of a false Emperor (well now they might be totaly mad). Best regards, Skanvak Drakken
Exactly, everyone is fighting other evils and atrocities with evils and atrocities of their own, there are no good guys in 40k and each faction has it's own heroes.
