The difference between Guild Wars 1 and World of Warcraft's expansions is that the World of Warcraft character skill/talent updates are done though a patch which is retroactive even for people who do not own the expansions. All you're getting in WoW expansion packs is access to PvE content. GW1 screwed the pooch a bit on that. Blizzard did it right. Not a huge issue.
@ Araghast I disagree that expansions will always be like the Guild Wars 1 style. But I do agree with you that players would buy expansions for the extra experience of the game they enjoy rather than any included specific new gear and abilities; and this only seems to enforces the idea that such pay-to-win content doesn't need to be in expansions. But, while I classify this as pay-to-win, I think it is still reasonable if such compromises needed to be made. However, I don't think this game will be so lacking in funds to require such compromises.
I am fine with keeping the B2P for Expansions A good Compromise is a freely trade able two tier Currency like Cryptic does it with STO The ones that a lot of time to play and acquire a lot of ingame currency can trade for RM currency with the ones that don't have lot of time and buy RM Currency to get Ingame Currency P2W is a real game advantages such a superior items that can not be obtained otherwise or only with a ridiculous amount of time Specially with the Compromise mentioned above anyone can buy Cosmetics and XP Boosts from a possible Ingame Shop
It is not about disagreement, its just the way it is. If there is nothing new to be added in the expansion then its just a skin job your buying. If you buy an expansion what would you expect? For EC a new race has different stats which means it plays differently, its p2w because i bought it and you did not and i gain an advantage over you by having that race. So those who play Ork boyz will be at a disadvantage because i got 3 other races that might have one of them be a good counter vs orks. So races are then indeed p2w i am buying a new race to gain a new horizontal advantage, that is p2w like the dreadnought. In essence what one wants here is all content that takes time to model and create like armour and so on and so forth to be free of charge added to the game, not as expansion but just being in the game for free patched. So we want free stuff for their hard work because if we actually paid up for the time they spent working on something it would go down into the p2w category. How can they add new weapons and armours to the game and still get paid for their hard work doing that? disagree or not i respect that, yet one can not expect to get free stuff, content, we do want new weapons, we do want new armours, or are we going to settle down with what we get and claim the "if i cant afford the expansion with all the new gear it is p2w buddy." Expansions such as Gw1 and the like has served as a good thing, when a game releases an expansion pretty much everyone would want it, it brings so much new stuff to do, the armour and weapons which are in fact p2w due to your buying to gain the possibility of getting new weapons, stronger or just more versatile its there, the difference is however, a large majority or heck anyone who enjoys the game will pretty much get it, so the p2w arguments get greyed out due to the fact if you can afford 60 bucks for the game, you can probably afford 30 bucks for the expansion with ease. If we all buy it and we all have access to the same stuff, how can it be p2w? and because in this case the majority will have access to it all but the only people left complaining p2w will be a minority and those people are scratched down to the "poor peasants who want to bring everyone else down to their lvl". Nobody thinks about the new gear that is added people think of the experience first and foremost and all the cool stuff that is there, then as a bonus new gear is dropped and gives you new stats and new looks. Expansion expands on everything, that is what it is even WoW adds new dungeons and within them new armoured sets new weapons to be dropped and collected, or are people raiding the new dungeons to get the same gear?
Wait a second, so now buying access to a new race via expansion is pay to win? Pay to win is not defined this way. It sounds like you think buying a video game is pay to win, because the person had to pay to win the game (what?!). This isn't pay to win at all. It's buy to play! I think you guys have gone a little too far with what pay to win actually is. It's when players who have equivalent gear are given bonuses in-game by buying the bonuses with real money. Example: Two players have AK-47's. One player buys special armor that costs $5 and bounces every 3rd bullet that hits him. So now it takes 1/3 more bullets to kill him. He wins because he has a tougher character. Buying a M4A1 is not Pay to win, because the M4A1 isn't a more powerful gun. It's actually less powerful. The advantage it carries is being more accurate, but at the cost of power. This really shouldn't be classified as pay to win, the win is not automatic. However, this method of purchasing unique weapons can become unfair. This is where balance will be so important, if indeed there are going to be weapons, etc. available for purchase. The devs really need to ignore a lot of these posts, because they aren't really true to the meaning, they are just opinions about what a particular person says is fair. Remember, what you think is fair isn't necessarily true. Everyone has opinions about what should be in the game, and those opinions should be respected, but you need to understand that if your opinion isn't well thought out, your essentially just blowing wind.
Of course its not p2w its p2w through getting an horizontal advantage, whatever the heck that means but yea we are pretty much narrowing down this idealistic view of utopian cash shop. And your argument is out of context, i use metaphors with the race to make a point. In a nutshell. Buying a dreadnought with real money from a rogue trader which is faster but weaker, is p2w because you gain horizontal advantage. Do i agree? nope its perfectly fine. Having a race with different stats which is faster but weaker but works well vs some other races is horizontal advantage, but i bought it with money and is for some reason just as the dread situation p2w. p2w is simple, buy power with money which is not attainable in game or a very good gun that can not be measured up with anything you can gain in normal gameplay but with money. But its fun nitpicking EVERYTHING!
Which could be balanced out so that when he is hit he takes 33% more damage, making skill at dodging/hiding ( call it what you want) more vital rather than just soaking up the damage(p2w). Which would take it to the same level as your For each bonus/advantage an item gives you , it should have a specific disadvantage making it so it is balanced. But if an item only obtainable from the cash shop has no disadvantage over ingame obtainable items, then that is pay 2 win.
Yes, in general if you pay for something and it has no disadvantage, then that is pay to win. I honestly don't understand the whole 'horizontal advantage', I don't think that phrase has meaning outside of this thread. The primary argument against selling/buying anything outside of purely cosmetic items is that it gives a player more 'tactical' options and that having those 'tactical' options is pay to win; I guess it all comes down to who has the most options, huh? That's how I always won games in the past. If the game ships with all the options to counter any foe, that is, that a player can unlock all the things we know are going to be in the game, such as anti-armor weapons or fast attack load-outs, then the so called 'tactical' or 'horizontal' advantages are going to have basic counters that everyone has access to. The whole idea of 'horizontal progression' is that when you level up, there is NO advantage. It's just the 'advantage' or being a certain class or specialization. Everyone has an advantage, no one has advantage. If I was the only player in the world with the M4A1 in CoD, and I payed $5 for it, would that be pay to win? Don't even think about saying yes. It's just a different weapon, its unique, and sets you apart from everyone else. It's not better or worse, just different. Honestly, I can see it already, people freaking out because someone else paid more to get more toys to play with. This is inherently unfair, such a grievous offense, and we should definitely cry about it, that's what daddy always told me to do when I don't get what the other boy has.
@ GraciousEel761 The reason I would define having any single exclusive character build option as pay-to-win is because it opens up many more specific potential builds, which are all exclusive. Any of these exclusive builds may be just as good as any non-exclusive build in a many ways; but, there will also end up being an exclusive build that is good at a unique exclusive combination of things, which means that only players who paid cash will have that build with that specific combination of strengths. That's not to say it won't still be countered, but it fills a unique, cash exclusive, niche role in game more efficiently than otherwise. Also about equivalently powerful, but not identical, character build options:
