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What Is Pay 2 Win For You In Today's Game World?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by MiguelCaron, Dec 2, 2013.


What is your Prefered Business Model?

  1. F2P

  2. Buy 2 Play with Micro-Transactions (NO ingame Powers)

  3. Buy 2 Play with Micro-Transactions (Ingame powers lower than the one from playing)

  4. Eternal Crusade model: Buy 2 Play (NO Ingame Powers) with Orks Boys F2P

  5. F2P in a Pay2Win Model (I really hope you dont choose this one!!) ;-)

Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Miguel Caron MiguelCaron CECO (Chief Eternal Crusade Officer)

    Dear Crusaders,

    Like I have said in the AMA, we are now starting to work on Next years founder programs mainly due to your overwhelming demands to have it (I have to say that any business man as a limits on ''shut up and take my money'' comments before doing it ;-) )

    Most of you know by now my extreme allergy on P2W mechanism but fans are getting VERY intelligent about how they want to pay for a game and Games studio are getting very creatives on financial models.

    Remember as well that Eternal Crusade will be launched in 2 years so consider that the ''trends'' might change as well.

    One more important point is please remember the game is PvP centric so its important that a new player and one that has been playing for 2 years has to be not far from each others in terms of powers but can be VERY different in terms of flexibility and built.

    I just read this thread about Guild War 2 who has a similar model as ours of Buy to Play (you buy the game at launch and that is it. Ingame store is (was?!?!?) for no-power items only) but without our Eternal Crusade Free to Play options (The Orks Boys). Reading it, it seams that their models has evolves to something fans feels is getting very close to P2W. Can you Crusaders comment in it please?


    So, to help us make sure we have a model you like and that it fits our philosophy of fair pricing with a focus on long terms relationship with you (not get all revenue in first years like some other MMO that dies after) Could you please tell us your feeling about our next Year Founders programs.

    Feel free to make comments on the launch monetisation models, P2W (what is and what is not for you?) and give us some Online Games where you really like their monetisation and business models.

    On last VERY IMPORTANT point, please stay positive and respectful with the other fans that have a different opinion then yours. We need ALL feedback, the good, the bad and the Ugly (respectfull Ugly!!)

    THERE IS ONLY WAR (especially with this subject!!!) :)

    Studio Head Behaviour Online
    Executive Producer Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade
    Ardenstrom, Jochon, HAXTC and 32 others like this.
  2. Vigil Vigil Well-Known Member


    I'm going to expand on this post heavily but I'm getting ready for work. The picture is a starting point.

    OK. Here's the edit. It's a wall of text. I apologize and there's a tl;dr in the bottom paragraph.

    I made a comment about Guild Wars 2 in another thread (here).

    Guild Wars 2 is pay to win. People generally associate the term "pay to win" with being able to purchase in-game buffs or items which give you an advantage over someone else who has not purchased them. This is somewhat true in that Guild Wars 2 does have temporary buffs which are purchasable, but I would argue that it's not the temporary buffs which make Guild Wars 2 pay to win. It runs deeper than just the buffs which are available for real money. The initial core game design and philosophy of Guild Wars 2 wasn't stat progression, it was cosmetic progression.

    With a focus on player vs. player content the Guild Wars 2 team had to balance classes and they did this by standardizing characters stats. How you differentiated yourself from anyone else was left to character customization, and it's the character customization in Guild Wars 2 that is your "end game". It's not clearing a 25 man raid. It's not doing a 5 man heroic. It's not obtaining the next iLevel of gear. It's often not even progressing your personal story. It's getting an item which has the same stats as before, but looks better.

    The fact you can buy your way to looking pretty in Guild Wars 2 circumvents the end game. Instead of thoughtfully implementing items that content designers have created in actual content patches, like dungeons, story-lines or new zones, Arena Net/Nexon have decided many times just to instantly monetize these new items in the Cash Shop. It is a worrying trend and speaks volumes for how Arena Net sees and values their content.

    Games need to have a progression system. That can come in many forms both externally, such as the self-satisfaction one gets from becoming more technically proficient with the game, and in-game, such as a "rank up" or "level up" mechanic being present. Ultimately, it will be the feeling of progression which will keep people playing, and will keep people putting money in Behaviour Interactive's pockets. When Arena Net offers ways to circumvent their end game in Guild Wars 2 it becomes blindingly obvious that they are willing to sacrifice any form of integrity they had for their content in favour of just a little bit of extra cash.

    This is the thing with micro-transactions: I can't trust a developer to keep the integrity of a games progression system in tact when they allow other players to circumvent it with real money. Be that obviously though being able to purchase gameplay changing buffs, or by offering those without enough gumption to earn items legitimately to simply buy them, you've lost my respect and with it my dollar.

    I don't know how Eternal Crusade will handle progression, and I don't know what Behaviour Interactive have in mind in regards to the monetization of content. What I do know is that, hypothetically speaking, if the progression system of Eternal Crusade is largely cosmetic and I can either kill 1000 Chaos Marines for a Purity Seal (for example) OR I can just buy one for $1.00 from the Cash Shop - it's pay to win, and I won't want anything to do with it.
  3. Kaldor Draigo Kaldor-Draigo Well-Known Member

    I actually liked the GW2 'model' but the choices they made in the microtransaction store were not the best. They had things like XP buffs and ways to boost the accumulation of certain currencies you needed in the game to buy stuff.

    I love the idea of B2P and micro-transactions, but the key thing for EC imo is understanding what is acceptable and what is not for the microtransactions. E.g.

    - Skins, Faces, emotes, executions

    Not Acceptable:
    - 'Buffs', unique items that will improve your progression and being able to purchase any sort of currency

    Absolutely nothing from the microtransaction store should boost you in the game. Even if it is for PvE.
  4. Domilyus Schlifer Prefectus

    Boosts are not really considered p2w, they just make you move faster then others to a certain point, and that point is achievable by anyone regardless of boost or no boost, only when it comes to xp though and the like, money boost is something that should not be in.
    Tarvitz, Carnage, RebelGa and 4 others like this.
  5. Miguel Caron MiguelCaron CECO (Chief Eternal Crusade Officer)

    Crusader Araghast, What about XP Boost drinks?
  6. GraciousEel761 Forum Beta Tester

    I think you start to hit P2W when you are able to buy requisition to deploy in Terminator armor. I really like your proposed business model, and I think that having a F2P option really opens the game up for younger people who don't/can't work, and other players who like F2P (money conscious). It allows the game to reach a bigger audience, imo.

    One thing that can always be added later is a more in depth F2P business model if the demand is there. If you already have the micro-transaction model for the game in place, you can then begin to support more of the Ork specialization tree, and then, with enough demand, the other factions as well. The end result is of course standard price. Thanks.
  7. I wouldnt totally agree. If the devs make the game a total grindfest and it would take years to unlock things, and then there is a highly advertised xp boost, then I would say it is pay to win.
    Dave-HTE, Pyrophant, Zurus and 3 others like this.
  8. FabricatorGeneral Unbihexium Forum Beta Tester

    The issue that most people take with this reasoning is that progression invariably leads to either more flexibility in role or flat out superiority. When you are at a certain progression point faster than another player who put in as much time and work as you, you therefore have an advantage over him.
    The validity of such reasoning can be disputed, but there is merit to it.
    Blazebro, Lil Stab and Miguel Caron like this.
  9. Edit*
    If you want to know what 90% of people think just keep looking at Vigils graph on the second post. It really is that simple.
  10. Domilyus Schlifer Prefectus

    XP is fine if you ask me, because there is a certain point where you cap it, it will in the end say "Stop you can not go any further then this." So the boost shaves away time, and mostly for those who are hardcore would buy it to get at the top as fast as possible, they are in a rush i guess, but i see it as an extremely helpful benefit for those who have work or other duties in their lives, which stops them from gaming long periods of time, this goes for anything that has a max point, may it be xp or some sort of skill point mastery system and such, it only becomes p2w when it has no max point and can stretch out to infinity and you can only gain power, the gap with boosts will become to harsh and big differences will be seen.

    Money boost for example has no cap on it, you can keep buying and keep gaining money, in essence there will be those that buy the boost and will get ahead of those who do not buy it, hence the market will over time become a lot more expensive for those who do not buy the boost.

    For those who have money boost they will have a money gain which will reflect their market prices so they will see it as normal, in comparison to those who do not have boosts regarding money they will see the items to be far to expensive, because anything cheap is pretty much bought and sold at higher prices you play the market, some love this and will buy anything cheap for reselling at an higher pricer and boost or no boost it will always occur, but it wont be to the extreme because they want to still profit and mainly sell the item.

    The difference here is with boost the ones who want to profit can bump the price for example with 30% and those who have boosts will see it as a 15% price increase while those who do not have boosts will see it as 30% increase in price.

    But you see, if you do not have work or other duties then you will essential blow past anyone who does not have a boost, mainly those who work or have other duties will be discouraged to play the game due to the fact many who play the game are pretty much people who got a lot more time to invest, while you play 2 hours a day they can play 6 hours a day or heck even more, within a month the working guy will beat lvl 10 while the other guy is pushing at lvl 50 or something in that extreme.

    Also the xp boost works as well as an monthly subscriber although small or huge it does work as a sub, hence the game will gain a constant flow of money and keeping it alive, but you see xp boost as much as it can bring unbalance it can also bring fairness, without or with it the unbalance will remain.

    Yes but that flexibility is only temporary, with boost you have a temporary advantage ill give it that much, yet it can not be p2w because anyone can reach it, p2w for me constitutes something that one can gain with money ONLY and it is not something one can gain in playing the game.

    I allow xp because it has a cap, time or no time to get there, there is a certain threshold where you are not allowed to progress any further and once the none paying xp subber reaches the same treshold, you are equal in the end, i only reached it faster.

    Is it p2w i can grab a taxi to a certain destination and you have bicycle instead, the only thing that is in question here is that.

    "How much will the xp boost remain?"

    "How large is the xp boost?"

    It has to be tested and to see how fast one progresses usually minor xp boosts are fine and if both players play the game at equal times and kill equal things the one with xp boost might have 1 week of time saved with the xp boost.

    Some do 100% xp boost and that is a bit insane even for me.
    Dave-HTE, Medraut, BadEdge and 5 others like this.
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