For the Great Crusade to conclude successfully, we would have to prevent the corruption of Chaos... which has been in the making for ages. Dark Angels: - Would have needed an alternative legion-homeworld because Caliban had the taint of Chaos. - They are basically knights, so there's a good chance they would become governors instead of fighters. Emperor's Children: - If the Emperor's Children never had set foot into the temple on Laeran and Fabius Bile never had started experimenting with Laer-genes. - They were REALLY into art, so they have a hobby for peace-times. Iron Warriors: - If Perturabo had been able to calm his temper and break the rebellion of Olympia in a less catastrophic manner. - They were architects, builders, laborers, craftsmen, smiths. It would have been possible to steer them away from war. White Scars: - They are hunters. And there are always enough death-worlds with strange beasts to slay. Space Wolves: - Essentially the same as White Scars. Imperial Fists: - Essentially the same as Iron Warriors. Night Lords: - I see no way how they could have been prevented from turning traitor. They never believed in the Great Crusade. All they saw were transgressions and punishments. And the rest of the Imperium didn't share their ideas of "punishments". Blood Angels: - IMO, the Red Thirst is a minor aberration. - Though the Blood Angels were a bloodthirsty legion, they had a sense of honor that held them in check. Iron Hands: - They would have soldiered through and accepted whatever the Imperium had demanded of them. They wouldn't even have thought of capitulating and admitting that the Emperor demands too much of them by demanding peace. World Eaters: - If the Emperor had treated him properly at Bodt, Angron wouldn't have thought of rebelling. The World Eaters were absolutely loyal. It was Angron's trauma that brought them off-course. - How the World Eaters would have reacted to peace, it all depends on whether they had the trauma of being forced to fought for weaklings. Without Angron's trauma, there's a good chance, the World Eaters would have stayed loyal, even in the face of peace. Ultramarines: - Guilliman even had a training-program to prepare the Ultramarines for administrative duties. Death Guard: - Their rebellion against the Imperium was a combination of Mortarion's thirst for power and the Death Guard's shock of seeing the administration of the Imperium handed over to weaklings. I think, they would have rebelled either way. Thousand Sons: - It was the Tzeentch-Daemon Choronzon who brought them to Chaos. Their gene-seed was so unstable, they should have gone extinct by every right, but Choronzon saved them. Choronzon's warning lead to Magnus breaking the Edict of Nikaea, to the incident of the Golden Throne and finally the Razing of Prospero. Magnus' greatest failure was that he was too loyal (he considered himself the Emperor's favorite son), so he tried to warn the Emperor about Horus without pondering the consequences. - If Magnus had warned the Emperor in any way, the Emperor would have known that Magnus had broken the Edict of Nikaea, because there is no other way he could have heard of Horus' corruption, leading to the Razing of Prospero in either way. On the other hand, it was Magnus' warning that gave Nathaniel Garro's warning credibility in the first place. But this all becomes moot if Horus had withstood the seductions of Chaos. - Even if the Razing of Prospero never had happened, there's still the flesh-change, which would destroy the Thousand Sons. - Only if all of these obstacles (Magnus' curiosity, Magnus' arrogance, Magnus' loyalty, Horus' corruption, the flesh-change) were overcome, the Thousand Sons were saved. But then they would adapt to peace just fine because they are scholars at heart. Luna Wolves: - If Horus never had personally lead the charge on Davin's moon, preventing any chance the Anathame would wound him. Or if Horus had withstood the temptations of glory and Chaos and sided with Magnus instead of Erebus in the temple of the Lodge of the Serpent. (Though the later is doubtful: Horus' defining character-trait was his desire to rule.) - Horus demanded that each Luna Wolf have a hobby outside of war-related topics. Word Bearers: - If the Emperor had cleared up from the very beginning that religion is bad. This would have prevented the Word Bearers being censured on Khur, which in turn would have prevented Lorgar's quest to find out once and for all if there are gods or not. Though there's a good chance, it would only be postponed. IMO the word Bearers would have found Chaos either way. Salamanders: - They are artisans at heart, so no problem with peace. Raven Guard: - The theme of Corax' rise to power was a rebellion against tyranny. On the other hand, he was loyal to the Emperor. Maybe the Raven Guard would have stayed loyal as well during peace-time? Alpha Legion: - The BIG problem is that the Cabal's plan doesn't make sense. Whether the Alpha Legion engineers Horus' downfall and the destruction of mankind or not, Chaos will survive mankind. Chaos has followers among many xenos-races (Laer, Saruthi, Lok'kroll, Yu'vath...)... except if all of these were to be wiped out by Eldar, Orks or Necrons, which would be a HUGE coincidence. - That's why I suppose that the Cabal's plan to stop Chaos was just a ruse to trap the Alpha Legion into betraying the Imperium. - If Alpharius Omegon had refused to betray the Imperium and combat Chaos from within the Imperium, they would have stayed loyal. - The Alpha Legion would have turned into some kind of secret intelligence-service of the Imperium during peace-time. Maybe similar to the Inquisition. Mechanicum: - The Emperor's decrees that some kinds of research are forbidden, lead to resistance within the Mechanicum. coupled with the religious question whether the Emperor really is the Omnissiah or just an impostor. (If you combine the novels Titanicus and Mechanicum, you get the hint that the Emperor really isn't the Omnissiah, but the Adeptus Mechanicus keeps this a secret for the sake of political stability and internal peace.) - IMO it would just have been a question of time for a curious Mechanicum-researcher to dabble in forbidden warp-craft. On the other hand, Horus' support was the only reason that encouraged the Mechanicum-dissenters into open rebellion and forming the Dark Mechanicum in the first place. - I guess, the Mechanicum as a whole would have stayed loyal during peace-time (especially as they now have the time for their own research), apart from the lone mad scientist now and then.
If the Great Crusade succeeded, not just Mankind, but all life in the Galaxy down to the molecular level would be completely, utterly, dead.
Confused as to why everything in existence would be dead? Allow me to explain: "The Eldar were close to seeing the truth of the universe. Their civilization spanned the galaxy, evolving for millennia under the guidance and worship of their Gods. And then, at the last step.... they faltered. The Fall was their Judgement. In their ignorance, the Eldar only see the death of an empire as countless worlds drown in blood and fire. In this moment of Ascension, the Eldar chose Terror over Power and Enlightenment, and thus damned their kingdom to ashes because the Primordial Truth frightened them all. They gave birth to a God of Pleasure and Promise, yet felt no joy. The Eldar were blind. They could have lived in harmonic union with the Powers, as humanity must soon learn themselves. Instead, they died. They were unable to accept the Primordial Truth, and were thus destroyed by it. The Fall was not how Empires die. It is how Gods are born. The Eldar failed. If Mankind is to survive, it must not fail. It must embrace the Primordial Truth. Without the Gods, Mankind will die." -Ingethel the Ascended, First Heretic. After reading the novel First Heretic, I learned that Mankind must embrace the Warp and Chaos in order to achieve Ascension and it's own Godhood. If we fail, then the Gods will destroy us in divine judgement.
Eh, words of a daemon are to be taken with a pinch of salt. They're known for lying constantly. Eldar Empire's fall was more than just denying Chaos. Chaos Gods to them were myths and legends. No evidence for them really existed. In the last years of the Eldar Empire there were many sadistic and crazed Eldar who were just looking for their next high. That is what caused Slaanesh's birth and the tear in the Galaxy. Eldar that were obsessed with following their desires to the extremes. Even then the "The Eldar chose terror over power and enlightenment" is a blatant lie. From the moment Slaanesh was born there was no moment to side with Chaos, millions if not billions of Eldar had their souls taken from their bodies the moment a large Warp tear appeared. Can't remember the exact bit that explains that but it is Asureman: Hand of Asuryan. I'd take the word of someone who actually witness the Fall over a Daemon any day.
You know, you came up with good answers for the majority of this including some stuff which didn't come to mind (especially the bit about the White Scars being hunters, that was a good solution) but this one seemed surprising. However someone (sorry I cannot credit who) a while back, did mention one solution which would solve almost everything: Magnus the Red needed to visit Nostramo. Whether or not you believe his case of split personality disorder was true or not, his eventual actions were ultimately driven by his visions. He was haunted his entire life by the same vision, over and over again of death and disaster. This seemed to add a fatalistic, perhaps even nihilistic, streak to his character and set him on the path of greater savagery, and likely enhanced his mental decline over the ages. As such, he needed to speak with a powerful psyker over these issues, one who might be able to convince him that the future was not entirely set in stone, one who might be able to teach him to channel his visions in a new way. At the same time however, simply visiting Konrad wouldn't solve all these problems. In all likelihood merely speaking to him directly would force him to reject Magnus, and instead there needed to be a singular link to create a connection, perhaps even establishing common ground. The best answer to that would have been if Magnus visited Nostramo during its decline, before mass murderers fully made up the Night Lords legion's ranks but while things were going to hell. If he discovered what was happening, joined Konrad in restoring order to the world and used it as a point to show the future could be changed if actions were taken, I could see him taking a different path. It would halt the legion's more savage tendencies while leaving them with a strong recruitment world, and have made Konrad more stable. With that, I could see the Night Lords effectively turning into the Imperium's version of the Ordo Hereticus; with the entire legion hunting the worst criminals in the dark, then bringing them to a bloody end at a moment's notice. There might be others, but after some thinking this is the only solution which comes to mind. Though, let's be clear on one thing: Despite this, Fulgrim needed to be Konrad's tutor. Beyond possibly Sanguinius, he was probably the only one able to get him to talk thanks to his nature and charisma. While some might have shared links with Konrad in some way they were often opposed directly by others. For example, Mortarion was equally grim and hated tyrants but his way of war and method of control utterly opposed that of Konrad. Equally, Corax's abilities overlapped with elements of Konrad's, but he had such a different upbringing it would have been hard for the two to connect. So, Fulgrim, for all his differences, still needed to be the one to get him to talk, but I think he needed to talk to Magnus in order to be turned away from the future. Also, Khan might have worked as well, but he did not use or delve into psychic power so deeply so i'm not sure if he might have had the same effect. In fairness, both cases are heavily subjective thanks to the biased nature of storytelling and how they followed certain viewpoints over others. That said, I am inclined to agree with you that the daemon's words should be taken with a mountain of salt due to its nature and their history of being predictably unreliable and fickle when it comes to the truth.
Honestly Killbo, if anyone at all listened to Magnus the Red then so much tragedy could of been averted. The Emperor should of sent him out to council each of the Primarchs individually. The distrust of him was one of the most painfully counterproductive things of the Heresy/Great Crusade.
I know that lore-wise what Ingethel is saying is probably bullshit, but I was speaking in character. My honest opinion? The Great Crusade could never succeed. Eventually someone would be smart enough to realize that Mankind doesn't need to be ruled by a xenophobic, racist, 4-th reich Psyker and overthrow him, with or without Chaos.
True, and many of his thoughts would have ultimately helped to avoid the key events which led to the heresy. Even without his visions of Horus' betrayal, if the Emperor had simply listened to he, Russ and a few others about the mistake of rebuking Lorgar, the key architect behind the war never would have found his new gods. Admittedly, it's still hard to tell where things would have gone given he had already bargained with the Changer of Ways at that point In this case though, I brought him up as he he seems to have been the one with the best chance of ensuring Night Haunter remained relatively sane, or at least sidestepped the worst elements of his legion. Any primarch could have visited Nostramo, save possibly for Angron and Alpharius, and helped him keep order directly, but Magnus really was the only one who could have helped with those visions.
In the very big picture certain things dont make sense to me. Keep in mind, i havent read the entire series so perhaps some of you could fill me in on the following: The emperor had foreseen the threat of the powers of chaos. He then moves on to (despite old night, warp storms and countless demonic incursions already happened) create an imperium with the imeprial truth, pretty much an atheistic system. Now im not sure if it makes sense to do that: the powers of chaos are fed by human emotions, right? Whether they believe in them or not. So by deliberately creating an imperial truth where people are discouraged to believe in supernatural things, wasnt the emperor setting humanity up for a huge surprise? Because he and malcador and perhaps some others did know or at least suspect there were 'things'out there in the warp. Come on, he is the biggest psyker mankind has ever known. When the great crusade was just about on its last legs he goes back to terra to work on his supersecret webway project. He could not have anticipated that just like with the primarchs, the closer he came to fruition of his project, the warp entities would try and fuck that up? Why didnt he destroy the primarchs one by one as he found them? obviously they were taken away and spread out by chaos, surely he couldnt fully trust them anymore, or at least suspect there was some insidious plan going on. He was okay with exterminatus of entire planets which had machines or mutants just to be on the safe side, but suddenly with the primarchs he went: meh, what could go wrong? Then you have the scenes, one was a vision of Horus, where Magnus takes him to the incubators just before chaos swept them up, and the second scene i remember was that wordbearer group that got a vision (the first heretric i think it was in?) that implied the emperor himself used certain elements by or from the warp in order to create the primarchs in the first place. it does not make sense characterwise.
