The bolter is objectively garbage with this new UAT concept, I might as well run a Stalker Bolter or Plasma Gun against literally all foes, the only edge the bolter would have is that I can miss more and still get a kill. Factor in the fact that now that the weapon is slower firing it is more vulnerable to rollex and other exploits which the developers won't fix and this is looking like a pretty noticeable nerf. 140 RPM at 90 damage = 210 DPS, like old stats 210 RPM at 60 damage = 210 DPS, like old stats 250 RPM at 51 damage = 212.5 DPS, almost like old stats Just pick one of these. The issue was never that the bolter was over-performing FFS the idea for the change entirely comes from the idea that people felt that the bolter fired too fast. Get the math right and the rest is easy, if the change throws headshot TTK/shots to kill out of whack then simply adjust the headshot multiplier for Bolters to bring it back into line with what it was previously. Add recoil if you want, just don't add horizontal recoil if you're not buffing the DPS significantly because horizontal recoil is actually uncontrollable past close range (0 - 25m).
I've lost count of how many times I've posted this. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...iODauq4siW8kxIdpa4HngSLVGQ/edit#gid=785184240 It is the ultimate resource for arguing balance, the gold standard of math when it comes to your tools of murder. I'm actually surprised the developers don't have a link to it on the first page. Credit goes to @Oan-Mkoll & @Slough_Monster - the real MVPs of Eternal Crusade balance discussions.
As I played Eldar I can't say that much more about the bolter, besides that it still felt very deadly. Though CSM had good players and my ping on US servers isn't the best, so that might have been a factor as well. All in all, I think it would be very good for the discussion and the feeling of the community, if for the next playtest we could try out another way to rework the bolter. Up until now balance changes that made UAT always went live no matter what we said, it would be nice to see that change for once. A lot of good points where made, I think at least one more iteration before it hits live should happen. Regarding the map: A-Point: I think it's a problem that there is only the two slopes to the upper floor of A. While A has a lot of entrances, they all just lead you to ground level. There is no way to enter A at upper level. Also, I think the point might get pretty crammed when it's 20v20, though that's just theory as playtest player numbers were way below that. As I already suggested during the game, I think connecting the bridge east of the point to the upper floor might open up the A point a bit more, while also giving another access to the high ground, and moving a good chunk of the action to the bridges. Also, I think it'd look nice if the bridge where the cap point is on would extend a bit around the cap point. Plus, maybe some kinda technical thingy hanging down from the ceiling above the cap point. The defenders spawn point when contested felt a bit far away. Maybe somewhere around that dome with the quad gun? B-Point: The additional high ground slope up the hill is a nice feature. How about another slope to the left and a bit lower, ending up in a corckscrew stair or an elevator? The point in itself is quite nice, though as attacker spawning on B I'm always a bit irritated that the door towards C is closed and need a second to orientate myself. Maybe you can open it up for the next test? The defenders spawn point when contested felt a bit far away. Maybe move it a bit towards the front end of the structure it's now and add some cover there? C-Point: I think the new flank way needs some more work. It seems too small for real engagements. That was fine when it was JPA only, but it will most likely be a problem with 5 or 10 players going that way. I'm not sure if I went through all of it, but if I didn't miss anything C-Point has the same problem as A: only the two stairs in the back lead to the upper floor. An additional route (maybe crates outside leading to a window or balcony, similar to left flank agnathio) is needed here. The way it is now the defenders also have no reason to hold lower floor at all, as defenders get funneled towards those two stairs anyway, where the can welcome them from multiple covered positions. Maybe you can also kinda raise the ceiling above the cap point, kinda like a dome. Then put a big ass Sensor array on top (you know, big satellite dish and lots of huge antennas) and call the map Sensor station something. We don't have a sensor station yet, do we?! Regarding the A and C point problem of getting to upper floor I'd like to point to Zedek, where A, B and C point have solved this problem very very good. Maybe take some inspiration from that? Besides that, the map is much fun. Hopefully we can gather some more players for the next test, because I'd love to see how it plays 20v20.
@Krayt sorry but you are simply wrong here. Pierrick tried to tell you before but DPS is not everything. The Boltgun is weaker than before, yes, but that is due to spread, not due to DPS. These are your damage-steps: UAT CQC--------Live CQC 54-----------------42 108-------------- 84 162----------------126 216---------------168 270(1)-------------210 314(2)------------252(1) 370(3)-------------294 424(4)------------336(2) ----------------------378(3) ----------------------420(4) RPS: 3.85/5.55, meaning: 0.26/0.18 sec delay between shots. That means important thresholds are met at: Live(body): 0.9/1.26/1.44/1.62 Live(head): 0.36/0.54/0.72/0.72 UAT(body): 1.04/1.3/1.56/1.82 UAT(head): 0.52/0.52/0.78/0.78 So, what we can draw from this: -TTK vs squishy builds like Eldar, Supports or Jetpacks should barely change at all. -TTK vs heavy builds like Tacticals or Ground Assaults should increase about 0.2s on bodyshots -TTK on headshots should barely change at all. In compensation for that, you have higher alpha-damage and better ammo-efficiency. This seems like a fair trade to me. The RPM/damage-change is really just important for flair and feeling of the weapon, so is the recoil. The nerf lies within the accuracy. I think the effects are felt more right now because of the lack of mods. I like the direction these changes are going into, I don't think they are going far enough and I am afraid further adjustments and mods will, ultimately, leave us in what is basically the same state as live. I would love to just see the spread as it is right now, unalterable, go on live for large-scale testing. A few, matches with a few players don't mean anything. If it goes too far or not far enough, change it. This is the premise: It should never be possible to take on more than two enemies, in a fair and open fight, with any reliability or confidence. Regardless, of how good you are. I believe moving spread is a core part of the problem because it allows you to deal huge amounts of damage if you can aim well, whilst still sustaining mobility and even 'dodge' attacks. Airbursting is another thing, but one I would honestly consider an L2P-problem, as it really means nothing more than dodging a little sooner than you would for an untriggered grenade.
thx fam bolter for now is dead , PG has more rof and more damage , plus +20 pen , why bother taking the bolter ... as i said : i am waiting the next uat patch to see if something changes , otherwise the meta shifts towards PG
Not that it changes much, but the Plasma Gun is substantially more LP-expensive. A LP-cheaper primary should not be outdoing more expensive ones in every majority use-case field. The case of the Plasma Gun is a curious one tho, as it's hard to make it cheaper LP-wise with it having the charge-shots and all that (which for some reason are not doing appropriate damage as of late).. but what CAN be done (which may have been what @Pierrick intended to remedy in some form) is to adjust the lower LP weapons to more reflect the price they have. For instance, the Heavy Bolter is higher DPS than the Autocannon, but it's cheaper by a sizable amount. (Even the MCHB is cheaper than the normal AC).
My Phobos moded was 350 LP , my PG moded will be 340 lp ... worth it the autocanon has more alpha damage for the same dps , thats why it costs more
AC also has 15 more pen, applies more force (though I'm not sure what that attribute does, probably throw off enemy aim) and other stuff I'm too lazy to comb through the scream while dying sheet.
bolter changes are exactly what this game needs /s lsm as a weaker faction together with eldar will greatly suffer from this especially considering why someone would make a call like that on the one had changes faction balance but also changes melee/ranged balance which will mean melee will be even more of a braindead class (in terms combat skill needed). we dont need balance changes like that we need balance changes that affect other weapons to bring diversity, fixes to classes like painboy or fixing bugs like durabilty loss on won rps or rollex, and rework how suppression works so scope is not a necessity to use. but tbh I already have given up on this game, besides some changes like scope sense and new a map all changes where horrible in the past years since f2p started or why do u think player numbers drove into the ground that hard? Its like someone actively trying to kill this game.
