Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by jbregg, Mar 30, 2017.
look at my numbers , its 140 % not 780%
your logic is just stupid , insted of begining your damage calculation at 2 feets why not calculate it from 100 feet ? maybe then bolter will do even more damage to help ur stupid propaganda
you want to calculate damage ? i gave u the numbers
now we can count the strong attack if u want , 450 dps vs 210.9 ... oh... the powerfist wins by 213 %
and even if we take ur logic , come in the garrison with me , take a bolter i will take a melee class , ur supposed to kill me at least 2 times before i close the gap if ur numbers are correct , want me to show how wrong they are ? (inb4 complaining about personnal attacks/insults/epeen contest)
You seem to be confusing "staging" for the game "rounding up" the displayed numbers. It's not a stage per meter changed, that'd be horribly inefficient to code and so much work for the most minor damage-change in the game. It's merely a round-off that happens rather than displaying a 0.18275903 difference to the last number by managing to tap a button microscopically changing the distance between the shooter and the target.
You were asking, how the system works, I gave you what I can only assume are the results of Blop-run damage-tests.
Make of it, what you will but I assume it means that damage falls of based on a linear graph whereas the numbers displayed on the loadout-screen are the minimum/maximum values.
I would like to give you a 2 parted reply. The first one is the technical part and the second one is my own opinion on this.
So why do bolter and melee weapons have different damage curves? Before i start let me point out that the Powerfist is a really terrible weapon and has been for some time because it was either a 1 hit kill maschine or a completely useless Antivehicle but can also be used in melee hybrid weapon. So it is kinda unfair to harp on this particulare weapon, hence i will talk about melee weapons in general.
The answer is quiet simple and very obvious, you have 2 single systems which must work in their own respective vacuum with their own requirements and then you combine them. I know you will take a breath already but stay with me and let us look at the two vacuums and their respective requirements.
Melee Combat is supposed to be based on an RPS system, this means that you have swingtimers and reaction times so your opponent can in the best case "answer" or has a chance to react. Furthermore this system uses "blunt" damage no crits no special bodypart hits to prevent luckbased 1 hit kills. Having said that we come to the part of diversification. You cant have all attacks do the exact same amount of damage otherwise the system would be very silly and boring so you have heavy, light and bashattacks to give the player the idea of diversity while in reality its just button a b c. The last part this system needs to work is to include the HP-Pool of the players involved. This determines the TTK in a melee combat. How many trades or how many attacks do i need to make. Increasing weapondamage leads to 1 shotting or 2 shotting people, decreasing it leads to prolonged melee fights which can turn endless if other factors like durability or fast moving external variables (read other players) come into play.
Now you if you apply the same logic to the ranged combat the system is far easier to implement but you also run into some problems. One major problem is the fact that you share the HP-Pool with the other system. But how do you build this system? You have basically only 3,5 variables they match. Fire rate, damage per shot, headshot yes/no (read crit) and "penetration" (this was once a thing but got streamlined away). The Firerate is pretty much dictated by the guntype to make it feel "real". You can't have a full auto bolter fire 1 bullet with a "cooldown" between it's shots. In return this means you are only left with damage per shot or headshot damage to tweak to modify the TTK, since you already know the HP-Pool needs to be static since it is your connection to the healing system and to the melee system. If you change the headshot damage multiplier or even set it to 1 you will increase the TTK for good players while you barely impact the average joe who goes with bodyshots. This way you dumb down the system to the point where skill or aiming does not matter at all just hitting. This leaves damage per shot as the only screw available and this is the worst one. Since all weapontypes are interlinked in their tiers adjusting damage means adjusting all damages to keep relative strength in your whole weapontree intact. Additionally you don't want to increase the TTK to drastic levels or you have a very boring game where people trade a few peashots before moving out of range or into cover without ever actually killing someone who is not afk.
Having said that we combine these 2 systems and you see where the mess comes from. A melee attack needs 1 second opportunity, animation and telegraph window to allow a counterplay and has 3 different Attacks which are supposed to deal different amounts of damage (not linear). A range attack with 300+ rpm needs a mandatory timeframe of 2-4 seconds to kill a target to work before the target will never die.
The obvious and unfixable problem is: If you want a working melee system with more than 2 trades per engagement you will do less damage. If you want a working and diverse skill including range system you can't stretch the TTK too far beyond 4 seconds.
The irony is that this does not even compensate for the fact that a melee player needs to get closer and has more downtimes running so in theory he should actually do more burst damage but this would break the whole combination.
If you actually survived the first part here is my personal take on this:
Behaviour messed up right at the start and bit off more then they could possibly manage by advertising a deep melee system and a diverse weaponsystem. They learned this lesson pretty quick and 1.3 streamlines almost all weapons, removed variables and baselined TTK. Sure enough there is still weapons underperforming or weapons overperforming but in reality they basically reduced every faction (apart from eldar due to a major design decision) to 2 weapontypes and their respective meta builds.
In an ideal world i really like your ideas considering different armorsuits offering different build in advantages like speed or protection or armor regeneration and different weapons (like i.e. in planetside 2) with very little individual mods to either double down on it's individual strenght or to compensate for some of its weaknesses. Even by bringing stats like visibility, reloadspeed, bloom or others as options into the mix. BUT that ship has sailed along time ago. It would require basically an EC2 and the current overall balance will always be caught between those 5% tweeks up and down because TTK and Trades are related to the HP-Pool and you cant tamper with it too much or you destroy the pace of the game.
Anti tank weapons are not balanced to fight infantry on pair with anti infantry weapons.
That includes melee anti tank weapons.
I get the upset around the powerfist, as it's supposed to be a "risk/reward"-type of weapon, and it's pretty lousy at that due to it's animations more or less "locking you in" to animations, as the game lacks any form of feign-attack or attack cancel. Though I do ABSOLUTELY think the powerfist hangtime with jump-classes is straight up freaking moronic design that doesn't belong in any game. Outside of that I think it's fine the way it is, but obviously the optimal design for it would be it utilizing a manual "power-field" that drained and had to be recharged (i.e; it'd do more damage as long as the powerfield was active across the board, but close to no damage when it was on cooldown due to being drained, sort of like overheating or something).
Uuuuu, now we talk about da powa fist? And how i can miss this?
So, when is the next patch hitting live?