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The problems with the LSM playerbase

Discussion in 'Space Marines' started by Forj, May 11, 2017.

  1. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    Yeah yeah, I know, another one of these posts. Anyways...

    I was once a mostly dedicated LSM player, before taking a hiatus to learn and level the other factions and then participate in their campaigns. Last night was the first time I put some serious play into my Loyalist, so I’m coming to this with fresh eyes. I went 0 for 7. Lost across the board, unable to capture even Point A in Hold the Line matches. We were fighting exclusively against Chaos, and the largest guild “stack” I saw was two guys from Lash. I want to share with you some of the observations I made regarding the reasons for these losses. I’ve tried to stick to observations and not get too ranty…

    Lower Individual Skill

    My teammates were not able to go up against an even number of Chaos and prevail. It was disturbing the amount of times that an engagement was only resolved when I showed up – I’m not that good a player that I should make that kind of difference.

    In several cases only a single Chaos player tied up a squad of 4 or more Loyalists – this happens in all factions, but I’m not accustomed to this frequency.

    This made it easy for them to bottle us up on the defence, since almost our whole team was required to hold one point, and made attacking in Hold the Line pretty much an impossible task since we couldn’t breach.

    Lower Tactical Skill

    My teammates were less able to provide supporting fire than our opponents, and less likely to work the fire angles or engage in flanking moves. We were much more likely to be caught flatfooted by the enemy attacking from a slightly different angle. The Loyalists felt like a group of individuals tunnel visioned on to where they were going.

    This really showed up on Hold the Line and Fortress fights, where Chaos was defending and yet was able to push well out and mess with our frontlines which were quite distant from the objective. Going places where it should have been a suicidal waste of tickets.

    Less meta understanding

    With the number of hours I have under my belt, it’s not difficult to anticipate the enemies next movements or point of attack. For example, B is a common first target on Maggon Medusa, and yet there is literally two of us there against a nearly full rhino. With that taken, C is usually the next attacked and yet once again it’s lightly defended, with no AV. Being able to predict movements and respond is key, but most of the time the Loyalists were off-balance and reactive. This, combined with the above lower tactical skill, meant that I was often in the right place at the right time, but isolated and facing an overwhelming force. My other choice is to remain near my teammates but in the wrong place.

    There is also a lack of understanding about the relative value of capped/uncapped points at various times, and knowing when you do or don’t need that third cap. The general populace does seem to have cottoned on to uncapped points being valuable, at least, but the deeper implications still elude them.

    Too many tacticals

    Too much of the team were Tacticals, especially on Fortresses. We had the wrong mix for taking on entrenched positions, and it was not uncommon for a squad to be pinned down by heavy weapons fire to the degree that closer ranged enemies were able to operate with impunity because they were covered by their heavy weapons. This reliance on Tacticals also severely limited our AV capability, and I spent two Agnathio battles for A point as a dedicated Predator killer because they never ran out fast enough. Enemy vehicles of both kinds were too frequently just flat out ignored.

    Not enough deployables

    This one surprised me, given they were everywhere when first released. I was the only one I saw using the Servo Skull all night, and there were not a lot of Apothecarion Beacons either, even when we desperately needed them to support a push into a point. No using Servo skulls is basically giving up 30% damage for the team

    Lack of aggression

    Even on the attack, people were holding back and engaging at range rather than pushing up aggressively. Given the overuse of tacticals, this is not playing to our strengths. I’m not talking about recklessly running in shooting, but constantly moving up and taking advantage of cleared areas and lines of fire. I twice set up a good crossfire with a Heavy Bolter (NO VOIP NEEDED!) and my servo skull, but no-one took advantage of that to press up and establish another base of fire. This is also related to the overuse of tacticals, as the timidity was often driven by heavy weapons on overwatch.

    The worst example with trying to take Maggon A with literally half the team (or more) up in the gallery on overwatch, and only my 4-man squad and a few stragglers pushing the point. The irony was that we weren’t even getting covering fire from the gallery, and couldn’t advance onto even the outside of the point.

    So what can we do about this?

    Unfortunately, the biggest problem is actually that the people who would most benefit from this message probably won’t read it. But the things that us experienced players CAN do something about are the overuse of Tacticals and underuse of deployables. My suggestion is that we leave the Tacticals mostly to the rest of the masses, and round out the weapons mix with more heavy weapons and melee who know what they’re doing. If you take a shield, don’t focus on kills, but keep your local pugs alive with it. If you do play Tactical, sacrifice the killing potential of the grenades (Oh, how I missed them…) and take the Servo Skull at all times. I’m pretty sure I don’t have to suggest using the Apothecarion Beacon.

    One other thing I can do is resurrect Delta Squad, my previous failed attempt. So if you see me in game, and I’m leading Delta Squad, join on me and at least you’ll be getting markers put down (if I’m not leading I’m probably giving myself a time-out to get back my chill levels). I also point you at this thread for a list of players who volunteer to lead pugs
  2. Noromiz Noromiz Nickname Change

    YOU CAN NEVER HAVE TO MANY OF THOSE WHITE TACTICALS!
    THEY ARE BLOODY AMAZING!

    Sry, will make a more serious response in a bit, but my point still stands.
    Katitof, Paeyvn, Brujah and 2 others like this.
  3. Smorcest Elector Eternal Battles Moderator

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  4. Unbiased Unbias3d Steam Early Access

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    Elector and Forj like this.
  5. Noromiz Noromiz Nickname Change

    I believe at least a part for this can be tied to the "Poster Boy Faction" status the LSM have, which means they are often massed by new players who simply doesn't understand the meta or how to play the game, leading to a relative high amount of losses of the LSM.

    There are also a lack of XP for certain actions ingame, as you for example doesn't get XP for defending allies with a Stormshield, leading you to be very low on the scoreboard if you play to the strength of the class :/

    Though that doesn't really excuse the lack of general "skill" which is more often seen on the LSM Faction that the other ones.
    It is even worse that no one really seems to listen to people in the chat, so you can't even make people follow "common tactics" in most situations.
    Forj likes this.
  6. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    Yeah, that's a bit of the "why" and some more of the "what". I mostly wanted to get something more useful down than the usual complaining about noobs that goes on, in the vague hope that some of them might stumble across this.
    Lack of attention to chat is why I don't bother repeating myself, and mostly rely on markers instead of chat. It's not worth the effort trying to herd cats via chat, so I don't.
    Kaptin_Pokkets likes this.
  7. Viktor Aramorae TheWarpsmith Well-Known Member

    I can honestly say that every game where my team doesn't communicate fulfills these perameters but that includes Chaos and Orks. LSM are gonna feel it way more because of being the go-to for new players. I can't count how many times on CSM the entire team was dead silent for a full match, not even mentioning enemy vehicles positions or anything and even when I attempted to fill that gap it was ignored.

    Honestly this might just be the way of games that require teamwork
    Forj likes this.
  8. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    I actually find that communication becomes less necessary if you have good tactical skills and awareness, and understand how the map flows. Like I mentioned above, I set up a nice crossfire kill box with a Heavy Bolter, twice, with zero communication. Seeing one Rhino go to one side of Olipsis B and moving mine to the other side required no communication. Communication absolutely helps, especially on transport call-outs, but tactical awareness will take you a long way.
  9. SmurfKun Tamu Well-Known Member

    Sadly I have to disagree with the less playing tacts my friend because now it's so bad that LSM players are chasing kills singed of the points. I've seen groups of 5 tacts clear a point and insted of caping move on to get kills replying that kills matter more (these where no rank 1 noobs but rank 4/5/6 players mind you). I've also repedeyly told people that shooting bolter rounds and att king with power swords are useless aginst vehicles both VOIP and chat but been ignored. At this point even if we had a solid tutorial there are too many LSM that don't care or don't bother. Because when I solos I usually get best preserver as LSM even if I am playing a GA or a DEV. that's right you aren't reading it wrong even with all the apo spam so few of them actualy heal or pick people up these days. It's also sad that average at least 2/4 enemy chemicals destroyed per match depending on map type and time because only me or one or two guys are actually going AV.
    So tacts should not be left to pugs alone but vet players who know what to do should have a varsity of tact load outs that they can use to multi task. I always use chat and voip to give advice and tactical info but rarely am heard and I am usually ignored because how dare a guild ieTell em what's to do despite the it just being things like need metals on rhino outside of A point or can some one red looks to B to see if it's clear.
    TacoTuesdayOrBust22 likes this.
  10. Forgrim Forj Battle-Skald

    Yeah, I wasn't too sure about that advice, and your point is sound. But the pugs that are chasing kills on Tacs aren't going to be the ones picking up a HB to suppress and allow the advance, or shell the heights with a PC, or use a shield to cover an approach, or take the MM or LC and kill tanks. Being a better Tactical than them isn't going to achieve any of the tasks that can't be done by Tacticals.

    But you're right, I wouldn't want to see all of us vets ditch Tacticals, because that would be just as bad. In fact, if I were leading a squad I'd probably take Tactical rather than Heavy for the +6% Range Damage banner and being a bit more mobile.

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