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The Ork Fluff Problem

Discussion in 'Orks' started by Onomatopoetic, Nov 11, 2014.

  1. Al'Chir Alchy Subordinate

    I think people don't see that Orks don't get umphed through lack of anything, but by having no other tactics than charging a firing line.
    Orks are beaten through superior tactics and strategy rather than not being able to confront anything thrown at them.
    Reason why a smart Ork, or a Waagh led by a smart individual is such a huge menace when it arises. An Ork is capable of taking down an SM, there is no doubt about it.
    Appledrink likes this.
  2. I get the lore aspects but I don't want Orks to have any excuses as to why I'm mowing them down like butter. I understand that some races and classes may be better at things than others but at the end of the day everything should balance out. If I'm squaring off one on one against an Ork as a SM, we should have a fairly equal chance of killing each other. I want skill to be the primary determining factor at the base level. I will probably be playing both SM and Orks, btw.
    Appledrink and Blakklaw like this.
  3. Gruk'Lok Blakk Klaw Blakklaw Arkhona Vanguard

    Well, when I say "I don't want to depend on other players" doesen't mean I'll be mockin' about alone with a choppa and try to take on people. I've played alot of Planetside and you never do that, unless you want to try and run up to a undefended base alone and capture it. You'll jump right into the frey.

    What I mean by it, is if you're isolated with an opponent. I can see the troubles in Ork boys matching "Space Marines", but that's how I'd like it, instead I would no matter what be minced if my team was just abit more then Space Marines. You'd have to outnumber the Space Marines and simply "hope" for Ork playerbase to work together well enough and hope the numbers are good.
    I don't know if it's just me, but I don't like the fact many think Orks should rely on Playerbase and say that "well you have F2P element that will work as meatshields so you can charge everything and win" F2P, will be standard Ork boyz, just with abit limited options, they Will Not be Boyz with a slugga, mindlessly charging and dying.
    Besides with so far almost 50% of the playerbase being Space Marines (I think it's subject to change, but still) in many cases it wouldn't even be possible to outnumber them, since you'd have to atleast outnumber them 3:1 to even stand a chance.
    This is beginning to look like the Space Marine with Thunder Hammer in "Wars of Arkhona" trailer.

    I still dislike this idea. You'll be able to pose a big threat if you gather around the fire and recieve a nice little buff.
    I mean, the only way I would like this, is if a standard Ork boy is a tiny bit weaker than a Space Marine and will turn the tables if the WAAAGH bonus gets recieved. Then I could get persuaded into it, but if peeps still see their Space Marine mowing down Orks like in Space Marine... Then No.

    If they decide Orks should be "weak" and depend on pure numbers, then lets take the Eldar as example.
    Eldar would never on Arkhona be able to take a fortress as the Space Marines with much more toughness and durability would rip Eldar attackers to shreds. Eldar can't outlast long enduring fights, but rely more on vehicles, mobility and shitton of firepower. As it stands, a Fortress will be huge and there's no way Eldar can outlast such a fight, where they'd had to breach trough gates and such. They'd get mowed down as far as I can think. On a side note, I don't want to lay down facts, this is what I think would happen to the Eldar in the game, if it was to follow as the Orks do. It's my experience from TT and other sources.
    So unless you can think of some cunning tactic, where Eldar can avoid the enemy fire (Not to mention CC) and still take over a base, I'd like to hear it.

    As much as I'd like to fight in a huge WAAAGH! I wouldn't like to see Orks as being seen as meatshields, where a Space Marine with Thunder Hammer slaughteres 10 Orks.
    That is not a game, that is Black Library and should stay there.
  4. Thuldarn Gaan_Cathal Well-Known Member

    This is basically what I'm advocating. An Ork without a waaagh bonus would be weaker than a Marine. The Waaagh bonus brings them to individual parity with X Orks in the region, and to individual superiority with Y Orks in the local region.
  5. Rasako Rasako Well-Known Member

    A single ork boy should be just as powerful as any other basic/standard class for the other factions. The free 2 play players will have less options and so will be less tactically flexible and that's all that should be different in terms of balance.
  6. If every unit of the same type is equal to the next, it would just be a game with 4 different skins. Each race' units should have different strengths and weaknesses
    Corphy likes this.
  7. And bringing my point across from the other discussion we had on this, I would dearly love for this type of mechanic to work well, but it introduces some serious potential problems depending on what numbers you put X and Y at because it throws off the balancing the other way.

    Hypothetical example
    Say X is 10, and Y is 20, and its a 20% reduction / 20% boost. Leave aside what's realistic for a moment, this is just to work an example through. I'm also going to assume there are no major differences in skill, tactics, environment, loadout options, etc between the Ork players and their opponents.

    If you have 8 Orks facing 8 SM/CSM, statistically speaking the Orks will die in the majority of situations because of the inherant -20% weakness. Essentially, as Orks, you NEVER want to be below 10 people.

    If you have 10-19 Orks, you'll get decent, balanced fights. Just as you would do if you didn't have the WAAAGH mechanic and left everyone equal.

    If you have 20+ Orkz, the 20% boost means they will comfortably defeat a same-sized force of marines in the majority of situations - unless the marines can thin their numbers down to <10 before half of the SMs/CSMs are dead. This potential way to defeat the WAAAGH mechanic further disadvantages Orks, unless they are also given a way of negating the racial advantage of other races.


    So far, so good. Its a nice idea. There are four major hazards - where do you put the numbers, how small/large is the bonus/malus, how easy is it for the Orks to co-ordinate larger default group sizes compared to other races, and would the currently expected population balance cause further issues.

    Where do you put the numbers
    Y at 20 is way too low to be a realistic figure. But wherever you put it, that's the minimum size of Ork groups you're generally going to see. Because believe me, if the Orks can run around in a 100 strong group and comfortably smash up to 120 SM/CSM players, then they will. And they'll bring spare bodies so they don't accidentally lose that bonus if a few people drop.

    In response, SM and CSM will either end up trying to out-horde the Orks - or be forced to rely on terrain or AoE. Again, there's a glimmer of a very nice mechanic here, unless it just means the SM/CSM get to claim easy victories by AoE bombing Ork hordes to death as well as mangling them in small groups...

    How small/large is the bonus/malus
    If its a 5% - 10% bonus, then in reality its probably not going to be noticeable enough for the Orks to be overly fussed about the WAAAAGH mechanic, once you factor in the short-ish TTK. If its not influential, its not worth the aggro of coding it in.

    If its a 20% bonus, then that's going to start really shaping Ork gameplay - but, equally, makes larger Ork groups increasingly difficult to actually cope with for SM/CSM. It'll feel somewhat like unloading your bolter into a horde of approaching Terminators. Except they'll be Ork Boyz, with the limited armour that was meant to justify the introduction of the WAAAGH mechanic in the first place...

    How easy is it for the Orks to co-ordinate larger default group sizes
    Generally speaking, its much easier to co-ordinate smaller groups than larger ones. So by giving SM/CSM a boost in small group situations, this will work to their advantage more often than you'd expect at a glance. Equally, Orks will need to stay in the vicinity of each other, as being split apart becomes an effective way to undermine their racial mechanic unless there's a quick and easy way for Ork 'commanders' to help avoid their forces getting split apart when they're not in open country. Again, its not clear what correspondingly exploitable downside the SM/CSM racial mechanics would give.

    Would the currently expected population balance cause issues
    Potentially, yes - because at the upper end, Orks carry a boost versus other races. If, as assumed, F2W will bring them broadly in line with SM numbers, that'll be an interesting challenge for the two races.

    On the other hand, 200 Orks will be much harder, relatively speaking, for Eldar and Chaos to deal with due to their smaller relative populations. Fielding 240 defenders to match 200 Orks is fine if you have 4,000 players kicking around. Its a good deal harder if you have 1,000.

    So in effect, the WAAAGH mechanic risks balancing correctly versus factions larger than the Orks, but introducing an additional imbalance to factions smaller than the Orks on top of their existing population issues.


    Conclusion
    None of these barriers are insurmountable, and I'd like to see some form of WAAAAGH mechanic based on Orks grouping up from a lore perspective, but in the way its described here it sounds like a thumping great can of worms that might be best left unopened, or addressed in a very different way which isn't about making individual Orks weaker than individual SM/CSM players.
    SpiritofRock likes this.
  8. In response to the OP

    I think a interesting way of balancing the three races atm is the "Armour" mechanic in play right now, all three races (CSM/SM count as one) all have armour and health giving them the same Effective Hit points (EHP) meaning that if you shot a bolter into each one and never missed all would die at the same time. However an interesting way to make each race inherently different would be to change the health and armour values for each race. (Armour is another health pool that regenerates.) SMs have the balance of armour and HP (Yes i know it's not lore fitting but whatever, this is a video game and it's meant to be fun) orks have the lowest armour pool, with the highest HP pool, making medics/pain boys extremely valuable since they have more to heal. And eldar have the highest armour pools (Again not in lore but who cares) with warlocks at most being able to res people fine and mostly dealing in other supporty roles besides healing, so they are more forced into hit and runs, it allows for each race to feel inherently different without making one race "Weaker" than the other, ideas on any flaws i didnt see, and how well do you think it'll work?
  9. I do find it interesting how it seems that almost exclusively it is Space Marine players on the forum that champion the call for Orks to be fundamentally weaker on pretty much all counts (health,accuracy, damage, armor) usually citing that the Orks are meant to be a horde army in the lore. Maybe, though there are usually tougher smarter Orks waiting for the lesser Orks to make the first suicidal charges before they join the real fight. However, seeing as how all data points to Space Marines themselves are slated to have the actual horde in game, and it's usually fairly difficult to point out reality to them that there will definitely be no Ork horde if they suck by comparison to everybody else. Though I think the Free to WAAGH will work well enough, I wouldn't put money on it translating to a true numerical advantage at all times.
    Appledrink, TheWiseDane and Blakklaw like this.
  10. ... if we want a waaaagh mechanic then we HAVE to make orks weaker if not in waaaaghmode
    otherwise we will have super OP waaagh orks which will draw newcomers to that faction and make them even stronger or we will have a not noticeable waaaghmode which brings nothing but lots of noise

    I want the waaaghmechanic to be the core element of the horde
    only thing we need to do is making the waaaghmechanic good

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