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The Imperial Guard

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Demetri_Dominov, Mar 17, 2015.

  1. Demetri Dominov Demetri_Dominov Arkhona Vanguard

    Don't sugar coat it. All of the other threads that have been discussed to death have eventually gone off topic into two simple questions; do you, want the Imperial Guard in the game, and if so, how? Let this be the be all end all thread for everything Imperial Guard related - we all know it's going to be 100 pages long, keep it in one place.
    Galen and Isyder like this.
  2. DjemoSRB Djemo-SRB Preacher

    You damn well know this wont be the last IG thread....
    Dont see why we needed another one tbh, but whatever, i want them in and have no particular favored choice of implementation.
    mikk34, Lucan, Golokopitenko and 3 others like this.
  3. Policenaut Policenaut Forum Beta Tester

    No I don't want the Imperial Guard in game. I honestly don't want any additional factions other than the current 4 in-game. I don't want any of this "one person controls 5 NPC's" mumbo-jumbo. The most I will allow is maybe having a Commissar playable as a Hero unite for Space Marines.

    Outside of that, I never want to see IG in-game.
    rhoomba likes this.
  4. Actually, I find the Imperial Guard threads a rather beautiful art form. In the beginning, someone storms onto the forums and shouts:


    "Guys! Guys!! I've just had this absolutely fantastic idea! Imperial Guard could be included in the game without breaking the lore if you actually control, like, your own AI squad of other guardsmen! Think how cool that would be! What do you think, should Behaviour do it?"


    And then other artists step in and add to the growing tapestry...


    "Do you have any freaking idea how much that would kill everyone's PCs?"
    "Well yeah, but no, because other MMOs have lots of NPCs in them"
    "That can handle combat movement and cover?"
    "I'm sure it can be done, because RPGs have companions and Battlefield had AI in the singleplayer, and they..."
    "SERIOUSLY? THIS IS THE EIGHTEENTH TIME THIS IDEA HAS BEEN DISCUSSED"
    "Great idea! I want Imperial Guard!!"
    "No."
    "Look, okay, maybe it can't work with AI. So maybe they get massive discounts on tanks and other vehicles? They could get, like, Baneblades as hero classes!"
    "Well, maybe. But what happens to the individual guardsmen then? Is he as strong as a Space Marine to be balanced?"
    "CREEEEEED!! PEW PEW PEW!!! IMPERIAL GUARD!!! FOR THE EMPEROR!! YAY YAY YAY HAPPYFACE"
    "No, he'd be like the F2P Orks. Much weaker."
    "EXCUSE ME. THAT'S NOT HOW F2W WORKS. READ THIS LONG SET OF THREADS I'VE HYPERLINKED"
    "I can't keep up with, like, everything. Okay, so he's boosted to be as strong as a Space Marine for balance."
    "What?! No way. That doesn't fit with the lore. The lore must be obeyed. The lore is the lore!"
    "I don't often agree with him, but that guy's got a point. Lore says no."
    "Okay, okay. Then they're weaker than SMs. Jeez."
    "So how do they balance against Space Marines, then? How is that fun for the bog-standard IG player?"
    "Right...well...they're Kasrkin. Or Ogryns. You know, like other Space Marine equivalents the IG have"
    "Kasrkin are not equivalent to Space Marines. That is inconsistent with the lore. The lore is the lore!"

    "And what about all the other classes they'll need? Or does everyone spawn in tanks and rhinos as IG?"
    "Look, it's just an idea, okay? Sheesh. You try to be creative and improve the game, and all the fanboys do is come in and pick apart at one tiny flaw in your idea. I just thought it would be cool to...oh, wait. Guys, I've got it! I've got the best idea since forever! Imperial Guard can be F2P!! That way they can overcome being weaker!"
    "I really need a facepalm emoji for the forums right now..."
    "THAT'S A COOL IDEA. YOU SHOULD PM KATIE"
    "Facepalms are inconsistent with the lore. The lore must be obeyed"
    "I WILL TEASE YOU BY POSTING SIX PHOTOS OF 40K MODELS FACEPALMING"
    "Stop it!"
    "FACEPALMS ARE CONSISTENT WITH YOUR FACE! SADFACE"
    "That doesn't even make sense"
    "So, like, I know, there might be some small problems to iron out, but wouldn't it be cool? I mean, like, come on. Imperial Guard!"
    "No. No it's not. For starters, no-one is going to want to play cannon fodder for someone else's overpowered character. And if you open up F2W to the Imperium, and the IG will be a really newcomer-friendly choice, it'll wreck the Ork F2W numbers and make the population imbalance so big that the other factions will be permanently trapped in their spawn points after the first hour."
    "So? They need to play better then! I can think of lots of times when me and my mate and his dog took down 652 players attacking us by tactical use of positioning in this other MMO. Anyway, Imperium winning is consistent with the lore!"
    "Imperium winning everything is...hey, that's my line"
    "LORE CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO TRUMP GAMEPLAY. SEE THIS VIDEO BY BIOWARE's CASEY HUDSON WHO EXPLAINS WHY IT WAS A GOOD THING THAT MASS EFFECT KEPT CHANGING ITS LORE DURING THE TRILOGY BECAUSE RULE OF COOL"
    "What?!? WHAT?!?!? Heresy! The lore is the lore!"
    "Lol! Yeah, kill the heretic!"
    "YOUR FACE IS HERESY! CHAOSFACE"
    "He's trying to make a valid point here. This idea is just so wrong on so many different levels"
    "His point is not valid. The lore must be obeyed!"
    "What idea?"
    "Your idea. About the IG. And why it just won't damn work."
    "THAT WAS THE CONCLUSION THE PREVIOUS SEVENTEEN TIMES."
    "Oh, that idea."
    "Okay, seriously? I'm getting such bad deja vu. I really don't know why I try to explain things - I'm done with this discussion"
    "YOUR FACE IS DONE WITH THIS DISCUSSION! GRINFACE"
    "Okay, we're done. Locking this thread - Savij"


    But after several weeks have passed, and the thread has passed into the history books, a little spark reuintes in a brand new thread...


    "Guys! Guys!! I've just had this absolutely fantastic idea! Imperial Guard could be included in the game without breaking the lore if you actually control, like, your own AI squad of other guardsmen! Think how cool that would be! What do you think, should Behaviour do it?"
    "No."
    "Well like, screw you! You could at least explain why you don't like my idea! I'm just trying to make the game better, I don't need people like you giving me grief and being all negative all the time"
    "No. Just no."
    "SERIOUSLY? THIS IS THE NINETEENTH TIME THIS IDEA HAS BEEN DISCUSSED"
    "Great idea! I'm PMing Mr. Spandex right now"


    And somewhere deep in the Eye of Terror, Tzeentch smiles as the cycle begins anew. ;)
  5. Rasczak Rasczak Subordinate

    I'm just going to copy-paste my wall 'o text from the other IG thread that probably hasn't quite run its course yet:

    +++Begin Transcript+++
    I've spent a lot of time arguing in favor of IG, and a lot of time writing about how they could work. Laying out the paragraphs upon paragraphs of my balance approach and the design philosophy behind them is quite time consuming, but usually by the end only the people most dead-set on having symmetry (in 40k, lol) end up still rejecting it.

    Any proper post on how to asymmetrically balance an entire faction must invariably be a wall of text, because balance becomes a hugely complex and messy topic as soon as you move away from "copy Red Team, paint them Blue, done."

    Part of it requires appreciating that there's a lot of nuance to Imperial Guard infantry beyond just "lots of bad zerglings". The Imperial Guard is a shooty army. They melee better than Tau, but other than that they generally want to be shooting. There's nothing wrong with being a shooty army, in their particular case it really helps them out because it diminishes the importance of their low strength and mediocre WS stats. The IG melee weapons of choice are the flamer and melta gun. Their Ballistic Skill is usually 3-4, which is fairly decent.

    The next thing to understand about Guard infantry is that they pretty much never fight alone, and they pretty much never fight with just their baseline stats. To put it another way, you never fight "just a Guardsman". Imperial Guard infantry, played well, can always expect to have some kind of status buff on them. Commissars, Officers (especially Company Commanders), Priests, Psykers, Medics, Techpriests, banners, the IG has an abundance of support units.

    In 7e especially, it's really easy to get Twin-Linked and/or Ignores Cover on a lot of IG weapons. BS 3-4 is decent, BS 3-4 Twin Linked Ignores Cover is terrifying. These support units (and their amazing vehicles) are what make IG really hit their stride as a shooty army, and make an IG gun line strike fear into the heart of the enemy. This emphasis on support also encourages IG players to group up to enjoy the benefits, which causes them to play like the Guard should.

    If the game has a proper economy driving the war effort, that would present a huge lever to help balance IG. Like the Gigacorp example, the IG could get quite a lot done with their "weak" infantry if said infantry could respawn faster than other factions and at a lower cost, forcing the enemy to concede territory because they are running out of money. Or, possibly, use the money they save on infantry to field more tanks and bigger tanks. This advantage would only grow if they got a boost to income, thanks to the logistical machinery of the Departmento Munitorum backing them with the full industrial might of the Imperium.

    The advantage the Imperial Guard holds in armored vehicles almost goes without saying, but I'll say it. Taaaaaanks.

    The ability to construct field fortifications (like the entrenched Heavy Weapons I suggested earlier in the thread) would simultaneously act as a force multiplier to make IG forces more formidable than their stats would imply, while reinforcing the Imperial Guard's preference for holding the line. It would also allow them to abuse their smaller models, by building Imperial Guard sized cover all over the place that is just perfect for a Guardsman to hide behind, but nearly useless for taller races like Eldar, Orks, and Space Marines.

    The lasgun would likely need to be slightly reworked from its "canon" description, mostly because GW kind of sucks at designing practical weapons (200 RPM with a 150 round magazine? Reloading on sunday and shooting all week is neat I guess, but come on, let's apply some common sense here). Fortunately, part of that canon is that there are thousands of variant lasgun patterns with wildly different performance metrics. Which in layman's terms, means the lore gives us enough leeway to build pretty much any kind of lasgun we want. I envision a low-damage, high-RoF, high-accuracy weapon with a large magazine.

    This preserves the other races' ability to feel "badass" getting hit by a large number of las-shots before going down, while keeping the weapon combat effective by giving it the ability to put lots of las-shots on target quickly. Keeping the 150 round magazine but bumping the RoF into 600-900 RPM territory would allow it to function as a combination of assault rifle and light squad support weapon. The abundance of lasgun variants also gives us a lot of leeway to allow character customization, since we can make a lasgun variant for every play style.

    This long post is only a small, vague, surface-level look at some of the things we could do to make the IG balanced, unique, and flavorful. The possibilities are there, it's just that people often don't bother to look for them.
    +++End Transcript+++

    I don't have a specific comprehensive plan in mind, just a huge field of possibilities. A few points of order I do insist on though:

    1: The Guard should be playable, first and foremost. I want to crush my enemies under the treads of my tank, not watch some NPC do it for me.

    2: One player controls one Guardsman. If NPCs are available they should be capable of autonomously following their objectives without the need for a player to micro-manage them, and the game economy should put some limit on their deployment.

    3: The Guard should be a fully fledged independent faction. Not the Space Marines' waterboy, not a side-game confined to a kiddie-pool server. A fully sovereign faction with its own resources, command structure, territory, and objectives.

    [​IMG]
  6. theres literally 10 more threads with the same reason not gonna waste mur time here then i have to writting this :D Maybe derailing later on
    okay mostly derailing
    Grigdusher, Bajinda and Ideas_McGee like this.
  7. Policenaut Policenaut Forum Beta Tester

    They should just consolidate all the threads with "Imperial Guard" in the title into one super thread and just rename it "NEVER EVER"
  8. Demetri Dominov Demetri_Dominov Arkhona Vanguard

    Ah moderators.... You poor bastards @Valrak @Savij @Gorilla .... lol. We'll all point and laugh when this is done, but the mods will be crying the entire time :/
    Aka likes this.
  9. Valrak Valrak Arch Cardinal Superior

  10. @Valrak, you can hide, but @Valrak Cannot run, even if @Valrak tries to be a ghost-like specter hiding in the bushes , We will find you @Valrak and when we find you We will burn down your bushes.... You will work ! @Valrak
    [​IMG]
    @Savij juzt cuz . OH MAYBE @Aka

    i

    i wonder which one gonna remove my posts first o.o
    HooliganFish and Aka like this.

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