hmmmmmm not really,fully moded rifles with the same mods (CQC for bolter doubles the recoil , orks doesnt)

(Shoota recoil/s = 14.4
Bolter recoil/s =13.65
wich is a 5.3% difference on full auto...) edit/<- not sure that its interesting since the kick of bolter is less manageable that the one of the shoota that is less violent but more frequent, so its safe to say bolter recoil > shoota recoil in term of control

its not "nothing less than sensationalist garbage intended to play on the emotions of anyone dumb enough to actually believe that" its math, it might play on your emotions but its a fact : Orks are the best faction , combining the best survivability to the best weapons
Here we are talking about only the shoota , god forbid talking about the Big one since its the best tactical weapon (who taught putting supression on tac weapon was a good idea ?? even more when that weapon put up 290 DPS wtf)

i still maintain that giving +7 damage to all shoota variants is a really bad idea considering that all objectives are inside small rooms and you dont want a faction to run around with 300+ DPS tac weapons , even if there is insane dropoff you cant balance that

you can give orks more rpm for less damage but not more damage at the price of dropoff

The idea here is that Orks will be the one race that hard counters the strategy of using the interior of an objective as a killbox. One or two Orks arent going to clear out an entire objective, but if your strategy is to let them all inside the building, then you have already lost, because you should not be letting them into close range with you unless you have a shieldbro to halt their advance, and heavy bolters covering that shield bro. Chaos and Eldar both can apply damage debuffs, with the latter able to provide two of those that stack with eachother. Chaos can also apply poison, to which only the Painboy has resistance, and nurgle marines have passive resistance to poison iirc, and ranged healing. Most LSM Apos run with Survival Vials, which give a nice damage resistance in addition to healing over time, as well as their tiny beacons, the medicare grenade, and their ability to carry either Chainswords or Bolters. Tacticals can carry grenades, and reliably shoot them for early detonation, and they can also carry meltas, plasma guns, grav-guns, and storm bolters. The tacticals that don't have frags probably have servo skulls, which can apply 30% damage vulnerability and reveal enemies in its LOS on the minimap. Considering that Orks cannot apply damage vulnerabilty and that only one of their ranged weapons has 120 pen (and it's a Loota weapon), I'd say that each faction is in a pretty good position provided they keep the orks at a distance. Even moreso if the thing with scopes is fixed so that they no longer provide 100% accuracy on full-auto.

I dont have much to add for balance suggestions but this:

Pretty much any objective relies on that strategy.

That is because, currently, it's the most effective for every situation, and that's a problem. It should be effective vs Eldar to an extent, and Chaos to a lesser extent, but not Orks. Orks should be able to get the most out of this strategy after LSM, since the loyalists have pound-for-pound the strongest defensive capacity of any race.

LSM have good EHP, respectable Toughness options on GA and Devastator, a way to apply damage mitigation (survival vial), the ability to place down long-lasting healing AOEs, powerful heavy weapons with high DPS, good range, and suppression, extremely long-ranged and accurate AV weapons along with solid mid and short-ranged options, good shields for their ground assault class, and a way to simultaneously spot enemies and apply a 30% damage vulnerability to them. THey also have the most options for ignoring/mitigating the effects of toughness, which makes them very powerful if they make the most of it which, sadly, most PUGs don't.

Orks almost have the best capacity for close-quarters assault, with their high health and average of 150 toughness. They have solid options for melee due to the many weapon choices and their cheaper and less powerful shield, but most of them are not exceptional vs. the options of the other races' ground assault classes, although they have potentially the best JPA of the four races for their toughness, health, and selection of weapons. They have okay heavy weapons, with two exceptional long-range offense options (Napalm Kannon and Ace Dakka) and a good long-range AV option (Zap Deffgun), but their close-ranged av is a bit lacking and usually requires more than one ork dedicated to it as a result, and that close-range option is rather ineffective vs. infantry, compared to the melta weapons, fusion guns, or grav-weapons, even if killing infantry with it is extremely hilarious for the user. Their normal ranged options are pretty solid, but there is room for tweaking to better fit the close-ranged style of fighting. The Orks don't have much outside of melee weapons that negate toughness, and ironically, Orks caught in melee are at a disadvantage due to their animations and their melee capabilities being made roughly equivalent (in the case of slugga and shoota boyz) to the classes of LSM/CSM as opposed to being given a noticable advantage aside from toughness (which all orks have). They should benefit highly from the meta defense strategy due to their specialization in close-ranged battles, but they often don't because of bugs with their melee mechanics making mobbing up far more hazardous to themselves than the enemy and due to the effectiveness of storm shields against them, since the orks have very few penetration weapons that arent melee.

Eldar have the best capacity for ranged offense due to their long ranged, accurate weapons, excellent capacity for team cohesion among their seven specialist classes, and high mobility. Their lower EHP makes them less effective at defense, which they make up for in part by having one or two options for damage mitigation as well as two options for damage vulnerability debuffs, which stack with one another. They also have a solid option for defending points from being taken by lone marines or Orks by way of the Striking Scorpion, who can lie in ambush as well as sneak up on heavy weapon operators. Eldar as a race should benefit the least from letting the enemy get close to them.

Chaos are a bit of a mixed bag, but they currently have the best capacity for close-range assault due to Mark of Khorne, Mark of Nurgle, and Mark of Slaanesh. MoK gives assault classes access to one of the best melee weapons in the game, the Manslayer. It provides 40% life steal for a cumulative total of 70% lifesteal per hit in melee, AND it's in the Axe category, giving it better impact and damage than similar weapons (Ghost choppa is more expensive LP-wise and is in the sword category). If you then stack up health, you become pretty damned tanky as long as you are landing your attacks. MoS on the other hand gives traitor marines almost the same mobility as Eldar in exchange for slower armor regen (with no EHP penalty), and gives JPAs wearing it unparalleled mobility compared to LSM and Orks for the fuel regen, making them one of the best melee fighters for their likewise improved dodging and jumping capacity. Nurgle Marines sacrifice stamina regen for some of the highest toughness in the game. In fact, they become as tough as Orks, and they get a nice boost in health for it too. In fact, a Nurgle marine can potentially have 160 toughness without being a veteran, making them tougher than orks, and they get access to poisonous weaponry, which they themselves are resistant to while the majority of their opponents are not. On the ranged side of things, you have the Tzeench Marine. Tzeench marines, and especially veterans, are fantastic ranged combatants, and a clever one can be nigh impossible to kill, since they can stack up armor regen better than anyone else. Combine this with a Boon of Change from a Sorceror and all they have to do to be unkillable is keep their distance and use cover effectively, despite their lower health.

Oh, and on a side note, I will now redpill you all on precisely why the Power Fist/Claw is such a terrible choice in melee, because i did some testing in the garrison

-The Sprint and Roll attacks for power fists have less damage than any other assault weapon at 75.

-The light attack is as slow or slower than the heavy attack of a sword, meaning you will either clang rather than interrupt or both attacks will go through and you will take more damage than they do. The animations also function in a way that your target simply strafing sideways will more often than not dodge your attacks.

-Unless the entire light attack animation is clangable, you will rarely clang against other light attacks, making that 122 impact largely useless.

-Its heavy attack is so slow that it is pretty much impossible not to interrupt it with either light attack spam or a D-Bash, even if it is mainly there for AV purposes

-Likewise, you cannot capitalise on a successful dbash with a melee attack, rendering two out of three of your attacks pretty much useless in melee.

Conclusion: If the normal light attack damage was roughly 220, and the sprint attack damage were equivalent to the attack of the Nurgle scythe, it could actually be in a good state of balance among the other melee weapons, since its attacks are so easily countered.

it means Yesterday, not playing "the game"in itself and doing tests are 2 different things , and even then i just linked him a sheet containing data given from Jordan , nothing to do with me

I have looked at these numbers and determined that they are meaningless. They assume that none of your attacks are blocked in any way, which is simply not realistic at all in terms of an actual game. The conclusion I can draw from the chart you have posted, since you posted it without any additional context, is that you are arguing that the Power Fist has the same DPS as several other weapons with its light attacks. You have not addressed the points I have made about the power fist in regards to how its attacks function in an actual match, and in doing so, you have rendered such an argument ineffectual. You may post that chart as many times as you like, but it only takes into account the absolute best case scenario and so it is ultimately meaningless in anything but the best case scenario.

i just gave you the chart ... to give you the fucking chart , there was no argument or anything

oh and while we are at it , dont forget theat Klaw/Fist have stun immunity for the charge duration of the fast attack allowing you to go throught Dbashes

Yes, well, I've been playing "the game" in itself for ~250 hours. The remaining 5 hours was spent in the queue or dueling/testing in the garrison. Suffice it to say I've been playing "the game" since I started, and that experience stretches back with at least 50hrs in the various patches that had been done since I first downloaded the game. More than enough time to determine that winning all the time is boring, and losing all the time is depressing, and to have played with just about every weapon in the game, excepting some of the 30000 req crate ones.