I can actually see how weapons on some level will balance out. My issue is the question of the full loadout and will eldar need multiple unlocks. For instance if i wanted to play a heavy weapon guy that could go from anti infantry to anti armour i jump between reaper and dragon where a marine has twi loadouts for devestator. Thats fine. But what if i wanted a special targeter. Would i need to buy for each class as i know the devestator could use on both loadouts.

They sell character slots because people don't have to buy the game in one go. They can buy it piece by piece. People who paid for the game get a full product, which includes loadout slots. Anything else would be obnoxious and alienating. You're basing this on nothing and I'm not interested in discussing the point further.

Short-term only. This thread is about full-scope for committed players.

This does not decrease your versatility. The option to pick up a specialized loadout does not make general loadouts less attractive. In your example, I'd pick a power sword if I thought I'd be doing melee only, yes... but that doesn't prevent me from going chainsword + bolter when I'm unsure what I'll be doing or what I'll be facing. Better still, the chainsword + bolter loadout has clear advantages in playstyle I could exploit. Nothing you've said makes the "specialized" loadout "eclipse" the others, and thus reduce versatility. The fact that some players CHOOSE not to use versatile loadouts, doesn't make the class less versatile. They still have the option to spawn a character with any loadout they wish; therefore, maximum versatility.

If I can choose to go to McDonalds, Burger King or Pizza Hut, my choice doesn't become more limited because I decide to go to Pizza Hut every time. I still have three options. Just like this, a space marines loadout doesn't become less versatile if he decides to only use some of it.

Sorry for repeating a lot of things, but I feel like I have to make the same post over and over again, so maybe you'll see the point if I give several different examples.

"I have a favourite loadout, and thus I've stopped using the others!" =! a decrease in versatility. Having access to specialized wargear without losing the general wargear is not a decrease of versatility. Nothing you've said has countered any of my points. You hardly even reference them.

It has been a pleasant enough discussion up to this point, but we have a fundamentally different understanding of the words being used, and I'm not interested in pursuing a debate around semantics.

I've laid out my final statements in my previous post, and as of this writing nothing there has changed.

At the moment, it seems you'd have to buy it two times, yes. Which is what the thread is centered on, this and similar issues.

Character slots currently cost $10.00 the full game costs $40.00 and comes with 4 character slots [source] , In light of this it's unlikely anyone would want to build up to the base game by buying it piecemeal.

If you are selling something then basic market economics mean that either there is a pre-existing demand for it or that you must create a demand for it, hence if they are selling Character slots in a game they are making then they will do their best to make you want to buy them.
How hard a sell this is remains to be seen.

That should be common sense.

Gods below I just knew you would say that..
Ok - For starters I was simply highlighting how the skill system in EC will differ from Planetside 2 to establish that yes, I actually do know about what is proposed for EC and not just imagining some MMORPG crap as you said.
Do you agree that this is how the skill system in EC is meant to work or not?

Secondly it's unimportant to my essential argument whether or not a player can access all the possible weapon loadouts on one class or on all their classes. What is important is that for Marines the roles that are deeper in the skill tree are more specialised and that the generic cross class weapons are by definition not suited to a specialised role.

Doubtless some people will attempt a hybrid playstyle, but here's a fact for you, a person who has spent time unlocking specialised weaponry is going to be more likely to opt to use that weaponry if it proves more effective.
Being mediocre at many battlefield roles is seldom a good strategy, particularly when you can just switch to a different specialist as required.

Just a quick question.
How many non hero Marines in WH40k carry bolters and chainswords simultaneously?

Now regarding whether people might want to equip specialised loadouts...
Would a Devastator want to equip a bolter (even if they can) or will they tend to pick from among the more specialised weapons they have access to?
Clearly not, they will more likely opt to choose from the specialist weapons they have available to fit the task they think they will face.. They will never be great at melee so why would they want to try when they have friends who are specialised at that.

Will an assault marine want to equip a basic chainsword if that means they can equip a better bolt pistol?
Maybe, but given that most other troops have better ranged weaponry with better ranges it simply doesn't make sense to try and compete at this when they could be playing to their strengths. It makes much more sense for them to equip a costly but more effective chainsword, powersword e.t.c.

Heros may gain a degree of flexibility in role, but how is that any different from any other race?

That's a poor analogy since you are failing to look at which weapon types are usable cross class and which are role specific and hence not available to a range of troop types.
Take the Powerfist or the Heavy Bolter for example, neither of these will get much use by another specialist and therefore must be discarded as an option.

As a result of failing to consider all the clashes between items and the cross class usage the TT allows you are making far too general statements about the overall use a weapon can be put to.

Since you consider the more generic weapons to be non role specific and widely useful I feel I should ask, What about the Heavy Bolter in the store, is that a general use item? And What about the Powerfist, it can only be used by heros and Assault Marines in TT, how is that any different from an Autarch being able to use any Aspect weapon or a Farseer able to use Warlock weapons?

I guess what this comes down too is;
When bE call a weapon a "melee weapon" does that mean that only assaults & heroes can take it?
When bE call a something a "light weapon", does it mean that only assaults and heroes can take it?

Once we know for sure about these types of questions, we can then ask; How does this compare with the Eldar class specific weapon choices in the RT store?

I'm still of the opinion that Eldar still have to spend more to have each class look better (as in getting your bling on). which is what the RT store is all about.

Im not shure about terms of conversation, what a point - diversity or effectiviness? Massive amount of possible combinations include only few (if include at all) really useful loadouts, and talking about variants of grenades wielded by sniper and light armor options for hth assault? We need a strong basic types, reasonable for their roles, and tweaks variety for them, not everything possible but nothing special jackofalltrades.
sorry for russian english.

Well having seen the latest "Into the Warp" (14) we have a heap of new info that we can draw on to make some informed guesses about this issue of Cross Class Weaponry (I'll abbreviate this as CCW to save confusing it with versatile or hybrid weaponry, though the two categories obviously overlap)


Firstly it seems that as well as providing unlocks, such as advanced classes (Wraithguard were said to be unlocked from the Warlock skill tree) and weaponry, the skill trees also provide a range of more direct power ups that help them in their class role.

The example boost we saw was a stability increase (while running) within the Sternguard (Veteran Tactical Marines) and a mirrored boost in the Chaos Space Marine Chosen (the Chaos version of a veteran tac marine).
Stability is presumably the stat that determines the character's accuracy while moving or running, with higher stability resulting in better accuracy and therefore higher damage output.

It's a pretty safe guess that the Classes will get to choose from a range of boosts that help them become better in their particular role.
For example the Devastator skill tree will provide skill boosts that make them better at using heavy weapons, but few or none that make them better at close combat. Hence an end game Devastator will be excellent at wielding heavy weapons (their area of expertise) while being relatively inept at wielding close combat weapons (the assault marine's area of expertise).
Presumably the Tactical Marines and Terminators will be more hybrid, assault/ranged classes though still with their own particular signature weapons being boosted by skills, meaning that they will benefit the most from access to CCWs.

So we can make a safe bet that, although all Marines start out with the ability to equip a range of CCW weapons as they become more skilled in their area of expertise they will be far better off abandoning these in favour of their class specific weapons, simply because these are the weapons that benefit most from their class skills.

Doubtless the CCWs will still be used, but they will mainly be confined to one class or the other because that class makes better use of them (plus other players would laugh at a Devastator that tried to play an assault role - I mean seriously!).


As I've said previously the Eldar turn that progression on it's head.

Where Space Marines start out as pretty good at anything they gradually become more cemented into class roles both by access to weaponry that isn't available to other specializations and by an experience system that further tailors them to fit that role.
The Eldar start out as specialists and later on gain some degree of flexibility and access to a bunch of CCWs.

For instance (going by TT as we know nothing about Eldar in EC yet) :
A Swooping Hawk has a very limited choice of wargear and weaponry which fits them for a light, ranged, harassment role.

The Swooping Hawk Exarch however has access to a wider range of weapons and can choose to branch out into a close combat role by taking a power sword (a CCW).
This means they are more of a hybrid than a basic Aspect warrior and have access to more weapons.

The paragon of versatility is the Autarch, a hero class that is able to use weaponry and wargear from any of the aspects, thus effectively making all the Aspect's specialised weaponry CCWs.

In TT autarch can't use improved exarch's wearpon, only aspect soldiers weaponry. no two-handed chainswords
but still nothing about exarch gamemechanics from bE at all, will it be low RP cost subclasses, with partially shared skilltree with parent class, or exarch options will be implemented in aspects, as a final high-cost in exp skill tree improvements for pro, or even free improvement for monoaspect squads leaders, to lore-correct support in game(but, monoexarchs teams is in lore too) .

Well yeah, but they've only experienced life as an Aspect warrior(s), never an Exarch, so that's kinda understandable, and they do get access to the Remnants of Glory weapons and wargear, so it's all good.

That's just TT mechanic to stop making OP HQ's. In reality or lore point of view, Autarch's have access to everything in the Eldar armory as they have master most paths in their lives.

As excited I am that the "AUTARCH HOST-LEADER" is in game as a Hero unit, I'm really disappointed that the loadout is locked to just scorpion chainsword & fusion gun. Exceptional weapons they may be and with the release of the Lael'shan Witchblade and others items coming soon, I was really hoping to customize my Autarch to exactly the way they were meant represent.

no, autarch cant use witchblades and singing spears, cos' he mastered in paths of warrior, but not in path of seer, and "hard" lore dont support this, and they don't use improved exarch's gear, cos' autarch is not a specialist, perfected in one task, he is a creator of tasks, as a leader, interpreter, as guided by farseers prophesys and visions, and a universal soldier as a battle unit, true Khaine Wraith, without aspect limitations. About BL "autarchs" with offensive psyker forces, farseer ability, and exarch's or even phoenix gear... it's something near orcs fantasies about "lootin" eldar scimmers, and using its wraith-bone armament and antigrav generators, or SM's "crush a titan by one tunderhummer strike", impressive, but ruin all universe basics, and turn everything in mary sue crap.