It's disheartening, to use a mild word, that so many people who consider themselves fans of 40K know so little about the individual factions. I understand having a favourite, and I understand that basic psychology means in order to feel good about yourself or your 'team' then you have to put someone else or someone else's team down (research positive social identity), but can't we all rise above this petty hurling of disparaging remarks?

Surely we're all here because we're on the same side. We all like 40K.

Black DrozD, please be conscientious enough to detach yourself from the bandwagon mentality of hate against the Ultramarines. The fact that you think removing the specialties and quirks of any one Chapter turns them into Ultramarines demonstrates a vast gulf of ignorance. Every one of the original Chapters has a unique inspiration and aesthetic, and whether you like it or not is your opinion, but don't begin to conflate opinion and fact.

Are any of the other Chapter's inspired by Roman/Greek mythology? Are any of the other Chapters fixated with the codification of war? Are any of the other Chapter's empire builders? Warrior-kings and diplomats in one? Which other Chapter is portrayed as being obsessed with the precise and efficient running of an organisation?

I could go on. If you press me, I will, but I doubt you'll read everything I have to write. My point is that the Ultramarines are not the stripped back 'basic' and 'vanilla' marines that so many Ward-haters (and I believe we are all opposed to that man's writings) accuse them of being. You need to do some real research before you start spitting on people's preferences.

In gameplay the Ultramarines will have their own unique battle traits and this will hopefully go someway towards changing the mentality of portions of the member base.

But I'm not just stepping in here to defend one Chapter. The point I'm trying to make has broader implications. Those implications are that we need to learn to dial back on these confrontations. I am all for free debate and expression of opinion, but we must remember that the disposition of a community is a huge part of what makes a game appealing. Has anyone ever played League of Legends or Counter Strike? The communities are, by majority (I hate to generalise), toxic. Let's not poison this game before it's even been born by becoming a hateful and toxic community who can't get along. I mean, think about how ludicrous that is. We've all been brought here for the same reasons, out of our enthusiasm and admiration for a specific fiction.

The problem of your argument is that all these siege tactical decisions wouldn`t depend on the battle-style of any chapter,it would depend on game mechanics.If in any period of time tank-rush will overrule everything there would be tank-rushes.If the terminators will rule,we would see Planetside-like deploys of terminator-waves on the control points.Forget about roleplaying,it`s useless in fightings.The full realisation of the RG peculiarities gives us one more battlestyle.You want sieges?Any chapter could do it,any.Codex,nom-codex,any chapter knows,how to storm,yeap,Fists make it better,so what?It makes them the best choice for this game?Nope,in general,cause their bonuses in sieges would be absolutely ordinary in the game.You even could add some Ponies of Emperor chapter and they would assault all these outposts professionally without being IF.

Do we see any scouts plans?Two year old plans now,I suppose,changed a bit and we even in some time might not see scouts.But we could get a specialized stealth chapter,and in some time,probably,receive their speciality(easily - just not being shown on the minimap while shooting and moving - and here you are,the main aim is almost achieved,RG is in game, just calibrate a bit and we have flexibility of playing).

Ehm,actually,I have no predictions to the Ultramarines.I made this comparison just for one thing:without Imperial Fists` fortification in game,without their ability to siege in the right "Fists`" way(which wouldn`t be realised because it`s a bit problematical) they become one more highly codexal chapter like Ultramarines,but in yellow armour and with own lore,that was my point,sorry for not being clear.

About this:

Forget about all this roleplaying stuff.This game would be a hellish-bloody-meat-skirmish like Warhammer 40k:Space Marine, like Planetside,like Battlefield,CoD and so on. And it would be so till developers make chapter-special units/formations/battlestyle.I see the possibiblity to realise some chapters` battlestyle,especially RG, but they will really "play" only when all this stuff would be added in the game.Till this moment all chapters will differ form one another only with colours.

And stealth isn't exclusive to RG, Guilliman wrote that section of the book using Corax's knowledge and tactics. Every chapter is capable of stealth, recon, inflitration and ambush tactics. Space Wolves who are already in the game are capable of matching Raven Guard in the stealth department with their Wolf Scouts and by extension, Grey Hunters. So it's not a play style exclusive to the RG.

Yeap,but still,there is no sign of scouts in the game(yeap,they promised,but they promised a lot).At the same time no chapter has such hints, for example,like this one:

And this hint could be incorporated into the game much easier than assault and fortification speciality of the Fists.Moreover,this hint could really influence the gaming process.

That's a feature of mk.6 power armor, which all chapters also have access to.

And it is something that can be replicated by the IH bionics if there is need!And you dont really know how difficult or easy it will be for IF to be implemented!

RG is,probably,the only chapter which uses this type of armour extremely en masse.Alongside with "wraith-slipping" this armour make them the best infiltrators among loyal space marines.

It is clear that you are unaware of the full implications of what you're saying. I will try and elucidate the matter, and let's be clear, after a brief prologue, I will discuss things purely from a gameplay perspective, as these are the grounds for which you have set your argument.

To your first point. What you're saying is that if you remove the Imperial Fist specialties of siege and fortification expertise then they 'become' Ultramarines. This is invalid. If the Imperial Fists had been like the Ultramarines as a Legion and then branched off into a specialty, your statement might hold some weight. However, as Legions they were anything but the same. The Codex Astartes was enforced on the Imperial Fists, as you will remember, against their will, after the Horus Heresy. This means that you cannot say by removing the specialty of any given Chapter they 'become the Ultramarines'. They become nothing if you remove their quirks.

The Imperial Fists are the Imperial Fists.
The Raven Guard are the Raven Guard.
The Ultramarines are the Ultramarines.

Remove any given quality from any one of those Chapters and they simply cease to be themselves. You cannot make one Chapter like another through the process of subtraction. The only way you can begin to make a Chapter similar to another is through addition.

As a final addition to the above, if you believed that removing the specialty of any given Chapter turned them into Ultramarines, then in game the Ultramarines would not have unique buffs or gameplay deviations. They would be exactly as we see all Space Marines in the twitch shows currently. This will obviously not be the case.

Now, after that prologue, you might be asking how that relates to gameplay. Well, simply because the Ultramarines will have traits that the others will not. The base traits of the Ultramarines will not be the base traits of other Chapters. Other Chapters won't have more or less than the Ultramarines. They will all be different, as is befitting.

To your second point: You seem here to be going back on the very substance that you've predicated your 'Raven Guard are a better choice than Imperial Fists' argument on. Now I won't go into who I think is 'better', I've posted about that in other threads that you're welcome to go and read.

The whole point of your discussion here is that Raven Guard are a better choice than Imperial Fists, yes? But now you're saying that until the special qualities are added every Chapter will be the same experience save for colour scheme. Based on that logic, when you propose to be approaching your argument from a gameplay perspective, it doesn't matter what Chapter gets in, because they will all be the same, and then the only differentiating aspect will be the fans and the role-play.

But we are looking ahead, aren't we? So no we can't forget about 'all this roleplaying stuff' as you somewhat inaccurately depict it. Because all of that informs how the game will played.

If you go and read my posts in the link I provided earlier you will see that I agree with you on certain aspects of your argument, but what I do not agree with is your reduction of certain Chapter's to near-neutrality and your disregard of the validity of all 5th faction choices.

Not arguing,IH are cool guys also.About fortifications,some month ago there was some info(probably,among twitches) that developers backed off the Miguel Caron`s idea of construction,made by players.