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Some Thoughts On "lore"

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AK40k, Nov 29, 2013.

  1. We arent saying the TT is dead. Just that the books and video games are demonstrably more popular.
    Unglory likes this.
  2. Etherion Etherion Subordinate

    I think you are underestimating the number of players. Like I said, I play fairly frequently, but I have not bought anything in quite some time. This skews the sales averages, because people can end up buying nothing from GW until a new edition or codex comes out. So a person might buy a bunch of stuff over a period of a few months/years while still collecting, then concentrate on playing when they have all they want.
  3. Im not talking about sales figures. Im talking about popularity.
  4. Locutus Locutus Arkhona Vanguard



    Yes, hundreds of books.
    http://www.spuler.us/40k/
    That website hasn't updated in a while, but there are almost 240 books on this list, and it's missing many 40k stories.
    Hell, I can't even keep up with Black Library anymore. They release at least 2-3 books every month I think. It's getting even more crazy with their new eBook releases.


    The game isn't stupid. Once again, the novels give us a "real" view into the 40k universe. They are canon. The tabletop with it's balanced rules and game mechanics are not.
    Unglory likes this.
  5. Etherion Etherion Subordinate

    Guess there are more than what they show on the GW website.

    And what makes the books any more "real" than the mechanics? Keep in mind that the universe has been in one giant stalemate for thousands of years. That wouldn't happen if things weren't fairly balanced.
  6. Rasczak Rasczak Subordinate

    "Canon" or not, the books are also all written from the perspective of one race or another and are generally considered propaganda from the race they're meant to appeal to.

    This means that all of them are full of embellishments, exaggerations, and outright falsehoods. Hardly something you can balance a game around. Someone insisting that they want the game to be balanced on their race's version of the lore is simply stating in a roundabout way that they want to be OP.

    And you can't balance it based on "everyone's" lore, because they all contradict each other.

    TT stats are consistent, unchanging, and for the most part balanced. They're transparent, we can easily work out HTKs, TTKs, average K/D ratios, and all the other stats that are important to making a multiplayer game. We can convert average HTKs into HP pools and resistances, we can convert BS and WS into accuracy ratings. They're also easy to work with, using manageable numbers and common probabilities that many people are familiar with. One of the things I really want to see carry over from TT is that kind of transparency, where you can see and understand everything that's going on "under the hood".

    At the end of the day, in order to make a functional game everything has to be rendered down to stats and those stats have to be balanced. Anywhere the TT falls short we can turn to the RPG books and DoW games to fill in the blanks. If something doesn't work, doesn't fit, we can adjust it. That's how we can get a game that is functional, faithful, and balanced.

    No matter how good a story you might think your interpretation of the books might give, it won't make a functional game. And at the end of the day, a game is what we are trying to make here.
  7. Every game that has tried to translate the TT directly to anything other than a direct simulation of the TT has failed miserably.
  8. Rasczak Rasczak Subordinate

    The DoW games failed miserably? Since when? Sure they fudged the numbers a bit and nerfed vehicles hard, but they managed to keep the general spirit of the tabletop balance and if anything they went in the opposite direction from what the Space Marine fanboys here are arguing for: they toned down the Space Marines even more and brought all the factions closer to 1:1 balance than they are in TT.

    They started with the TT and then made adjustments based on what they believed would make their game fun, exactly like I have been saying we should do. They may have made too many adjustments in some areas, for example I hope vehicles aren't as underwhelming here as they are in DoW, but a game can survive that as long as it's playable and balanced in the end.
  9. Nope. Not even a close approximation of the TT. And the reason why it didnt fail horribly.
  10. Vidya Vidya Subordinate

    TT mechanics will work to a point...But there are rules outside the faction/race mechanics, such as the total points are equal on both sides and the game usually ends once objectives are met even when there are still units on the battlefield. In EC, I doubt that these two things would be in play. Unless 1. the devs are looking into a min/max requirements of players on both sides before a game starts (if there is such a term as game start) and 2. whats to stop the other side from totally destroying the other faction, even if the real objectives are met (unless there such a thing as game end)?

    Maybe I'm thinking too much of isolated servers that can function independently where a faction can utterly dominate another (WoW alliance controlled or horde controlled servers) where the only way for the other faction to win is they are given a buff during a pvp event. But in a Pico server where everything is free flowing from one server to another to accommodate all players in one setting, how are you going to make it balanced if there is only 50 in one faction and 750 in another?

    And because of lore and mechanics, I think some factions are just unplayable but could be summon-able NPCs: IG, and GK. In TT maybe a company of guardsmen can take on a CSM. But c'mon...in lore (which I would see as more realistic/conceivable) they would be paralyzed in fear and then shit in their pants and then die. But you can probably summon an IG company for long-range artillery support :).

    SM are in lore are OP because they have to be, since the authors are throwing everything at them and mostly you'll see only 1 company fighting this legion on enemies of mostly cannon fodder with the SMs counterparts sprinkled in there. SM in TT are not as OP but it doesn't matter since both sides will have equal number of army points. Thus going back to the original problem of how do you balance a game where the OP character in the lore has a lot more players than the other factions? Do you nerf them (I hope not) or do you give the other factions something more (that is also mentioned in the lore of course).

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