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So Matt Ward Have Left Gw

Discussion in 'Table Top' started by Grigdusher, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. Sorry to break this up but i'm going to try and answer all these at once as they do actually highlight a few problems in the book and these supplements as a whole. Now, some points i'll agree with you on such as the bolter trill and perhaps even the points about Centurions, but the latter points as with so much here it seems those are only token elements to try and fluff out the force.

    In just about every codex so far we've had "unit X now counts as a troops choice!" used to try and make an army more outstanding rather than putting in actual work. In Codex: Iyanden it was Wraith Guard, fair enough, but then it kept happening. Codex: Black Legion, Codex: Farsight Enclaves, Codex: Clan Raukaan all featured Possessed, Battlesuits or Dreadnoughts/Techmarines fulfilling this role rather than anything more interesting or ambitious. Supplement or not, this was an entire codex in of itself, one which could be used to help establish and better flesh out the more unique sub-factions in a bigger army, but far too often the rules read as if they were taking the easy route with things. There was occasionally one dominating special rule, a few artifacts which fulfilled a few pre-designated roles and then one unit vaguely connected to the army the writers would shill like hell to try and get people to buy more of them. For all the potential, all the good ideas to fully break away and try something truly lore-loyal with each book, little drive to do so ever seemed to really be present.

    You cite the Cities of Death Stratagems as being about as fluffy as one can get, but here's a question: Why couldn't the codex have accomplished that without them? There was nothing to stop writers actually detailing an entire small Imperial Fists army here, one akin to the older editions of Codex: Blood Angels or Codex: Dark Angels prior to each being fully fleshed out into a true codex. There was nothing to stop Ward from giving the Fists unique units one ones which could fit directly into vanilla 40K while still remaining loyal to his vision, perhaps units of Hussars, an Emperor's Champion, breacher squads or even Tactical Squads which served as sappers for the army. Units which the players would need to custom make or even have full kits added at a later date. Instead they opted to go with Cities of Death, Apocalypse and a dozen other points which only work with additional rulebooks, and ultimately within that is sadly the truth behind these supplements: They're codices, they're catalogues. They're prompts trying to sell a reader on unique forces people have wanted for ages, but are shunted off a production line with often badly written lore and only work when players buy more stuff from Games Workshop.

    These should have been a bonus to the actual rules for the book, yet it was pushed as one of the main aspects of its rules. Many of the stratagems are purchases to be tacked onto an army, not something built into its very core. They’re points which can be used by the army, but not a single part of the army. It’s the difference between an army being able to fully integrate something into itself rather than as a bonus.

    Take the Raven Guard in the fifth edition for example, without chapter traits they had lost the infiltration rule which could be used to move units in ahead of their deployment zone. Instead their primary method of having infiltration capabilities came from adding Shrike to the army and using his special rule. One was built into the army itself from the start and could be used in any situation with any vanilla rules; the other had to be purchased and could only be used in certain circumstances rather than as a major strategic element. The same goes here, at least for me personally, as it feels as if there should have been so much more for their basic rules beyond what we got. Like so much else in modern 40K, the intention is less to try and create a good hobby than it is Games Workshop trying to push players into buying a dozen additional items just to make use of their favourite army.

    In all honesty, I personally think that this undermines any real value in the rules or additional details of this codex.

    Okay, but here's the thing: This codex is supposed to represent the Imperial Fists the most, or at least that's what it's advertised as. It has a Fist on the cover, the very title emphasises it's them, and much of the specific core to their founding, history and intricacies is supposed to have been covered here. Having spoken with Black Library authors in the past, they do research heavily into whatever army they're writing (the good ones anyway) and the problem is that this is where one starting to cover the Imperial Fists would go first. And, quite frankly, it's an embarrassment which abandons looking at the chapter largely in favour of one astartes and presents the Fists as incredibly easy to kill. The cited points about the lore still stand, so the chances are that a novel could end up featuring Fists being mowed down by the dozen because they opted to wear Thunder Armour to make life more difficult for themselves, being so prideful they're borderline useless to the story and with the Iron Warriors having pulled a Grand Theft Phalanx. Despite what was done to the Templars, I will agree that the main Codex: Space Marines does a far better job with them and every other chapter present, but as this is a Fists exclusive book it might be seen as superseding anything done in that.

    I would also finally add that, even if the book was seen as being truly great, praising a book which such an obvious degree of plagarism present is only going to encourage bad habits. It might not be the tabletop gaming equivalent of a hate crime which Codex: Clan Raukaan or Codex: Farsight Enclaves proved to be, but the sheer lack of quality control or even professionalism has to be commented upon.

    Likewise. There's too few people who remember the Second Edition still about.
    SonOfDorn216 likes this.
  2. Good points on Storm of Iron. It was just frustrating for an Imperial Fists player to read. Especially because, aside from Corwin (who was epic), they had no support, if I remember correctly. One thing I liked about the Crusade of Thunder in Sentinels, is that they had Terminator, Scout, dreadnought and air support. The Imperial Fists in SoI had bolters and swords and felt nothing like a Battle Company. And you just know Eshara would have cut Honsou to pieces, the feeling was palpable in the book. At least Corwin delivered in true Imperial Fists self-sacrificial fashion. Good points though. I withdraw SoI from my UM TheMovie/C:iyanden massacrs criticism.

    One point to keep this one alive (though who knows if Ward actually made this connection). Siege/Urban warfare is one of the most dangerous ways to wage ground war - and it's where major casualties are inflicted. Now maybe GW/Ward was oblivious to a deep 10th Company being beneficial to a siege-passionate chapter, but even if coincidental, it's a good match.

    I guess I'm such a huge fan of said basic initial ideas. I really like them and maybe make more allowances for them than I should. Also, literally waiting 15+ years for a Codex, I couldn't do anything but appreciate it on that basis alone.

    More to follow...
  3. If you read the absolutely scandalous Malodrax novel, it exposes why/how Lysander became a win at all costs and damn the odds and repercussions type of commander. It's the only way he got off Malodrax and he performed feats and deeds that would have instantly damned any other, yes, any other Space Marine. That he came back and passed all screening by the Librarius, Reclusiam and Apothacarion ( I probably misspelled those, but they aren't real words, so w/e) after what he did is either the biggest violation of 40k lore ever, or Lysander is the toughest and most spiritually resolute Space Marine ever. Ever. The editing in the book sucked btw. But I totally get Lysander's rage after reading Malodrax, I really do. I don't like how Lysander acts up until he comes around in the end of Sentinels and/or during his epiphany in 7th Retribution, but I sympathize nonetheless.

    Nothing, and that sucks.

    Regardless, they are all brothers of the Column of Glory. No other chapters have the honour, so any special relationship with the three is a good thing.
  4. I just cut that short because I think it all comes down to flavour, it's tough to add in a whackload of core rules and special units and whatnot when the IF are supposed to be the #2 most Codex-adeherent chapter. Day to day warfare you just wouldn't see it come out. When you would see it come out, would be in those exact situations, such as Cities of Death. Nothing you said is wrong or inaccurate, but I don't think the way GW did it is wrong either, especially with a super strict Codex Chapter like the IF.

    It really isn't/wasn't though. It was/is explicitly about the 3rd Company and never hides this. The few first pages are generally about the IF, yes, but that ends pretty quick and rolls right into the Third and Lysander's re-forging of the same. To me it clearly only represents 10(ish)% of the Imperial Fists. I would have preferred a Chapter-wide Imperial Fists codex supplement, but like I said before, after 15 years of essentially nothing and/or table scraps for rules, I'll take what I can get.

    I would like to point out an irony in your apparent support of Sons of Dorn and apparent disdain for plagiarism though. Sons of Dorn is an outright regurgitation of Ian Watson's Space Marine - without Squats. Entire lines were literally copied and pasted. I hated that novel. Chaplains with force swords? What????!! Haha, I even emailed the author telling him not to mess that book up as it was the first major IF novel of any consequence. I jinxed it! But If you've read one, you've basically read the other.

    We'll show these whippersnappers, Scouts and Neophytes what's up. I already (playfully) schooled Seth on his Chapter's codex adherent game origins, complete with Black Templar chest eagle company colours ;)
  5. Phaeron Zcee Nook ZceeNook Well-Known Member

  6. Aritol Aritol Prefectus

    That Overlord Model...oh yeah!
  7. And people wonder why I have been into 30K/PH/HH for around a Decade!
  8. Fenrir Fenrir22 Cipher

    I could not help but notice one group of words you wrote,,,, Chaplain's with force swords. THE FUCK?
  9. Yeah, it's in the book. No word of a lie. Classic example of an author who knows nothing about 40k/GW being given leave to write a novel about it. It's obvious in a lot of BL books when this is the case. BL authors should be 40k fans/game designers/whatever first, who happen to be professional authors, as opposed to professional authors who land a deal with BL for $$$ but know less than a 12 y/o 40k fan.

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