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So Matt Ward Have Left Gw

Discussion in 'Table Top' started by Grigdusher, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. Fenrir Fenrir22 Cipher

    The only thing he has is a licence from GW to make the movie as long as he does not get any profit. But looking at this fan made movie against fully funded GW ultramarine movie you see what a true fan can do!
    Psyctooth and Cupcakeunleashed like this.
  2. I'm glad I was able to introduce you to the earliest incarnation of your chosen chapter and the early history of the Imperial Fists, and at least you now know that Ward wasn't robbing the Black Templars or smoking crack. Sure, his implementation was less than ideal (as proficiently argued by Kilbo Fraggins) but even Kilbo acknowledged early in his reply that there is nothing wrong with liking the Sentinels of Terra throwback to the IF crusading from Terra era as far as it goes.

    I've had a good look at the FW Siege Vanguard list. I couldn't play it in good conscience - it seems very overpowered to me. I absolutely love the Sentinels of Terra rules set. The only missing Imperial Fist 'trait' is their infamous stubbornness - you have to, for some reason, field Lysander to unlock that now - as he basically doubles as a sort of battle standard.
  3. Seth Seth Arkhona Vanguard

    Well I still think he is on crack tho.
    The Sm codex chapters really do need a bit of love. They are a bit too generic with their traits and abilities.
  4. I guess, but being a Codex Chapter is the definition of generic in a way. I think a pretty good balance has been achieved. Because you can either build a Codex Chapter however you want with maximum flexibility, or take advantage of the Chapter Tactics which can form pretty distinctive armies if you build your force around them. I have done the latter.
  5. Wow, GW really doesn't like it's fanbase. I know that if a fan of the Company I work for had made a fanmade Movie that made millions or even billions in profit then my Company would hire that guy in a heartbeat. Not only would it build the brand and expand the consumer base it would come at no cost to the Company. What the hell is GW's problem? Not make any profit?!? It's not like it's profit stolen from GW! What do they have against profit?!
  6. Fenrir Fenrir22 Cipher

    No idea,,, but the difference between an official high budget movie that looks like shit and a fan made one with no budget that looks awesome from what has been released so far,,, is to great.
    SonOfDorn216 and Gunman006 like this.
  7. If how they treat the licence with regards to new mobile games they went from an overprotective conservative father to a liberal let your daughter get f*cked six ways to sunday is an indication, then they might let more companies use the licence to greate a lot more fanmovies or series now than before.
  8. Fenrir Fenrir22 Cipher

    I sure hope so, Even if they go make a condition that they have to ''white list'' the work before relese, like if someone makes a tau movie/game that it will follow the fluff and not have the Tau with laz rifles or auto cannons, or just utter crap.
  9. Well no argument there at all. Given that the chapter effectively devolved into a punching bag to beef up others during the Fifth and Sixth Editions especially, along with unfortunately being largely ignored in the Fourth, it was the era when they had the most fleshed out about them in lore. There were ideas and points established following it which worked well in the chapter's favour and even the odd victory which still treated them with respect. Sons of Dorn, for all its flaws, was a genuine push to try and flesh out the chapter in ways we've not seen before for example. It was the era with the most constantly high quality of lore and focus when it came to the Imperial Fists, but the problem is that there were developments following that and Ward seemed to only give them the vaguest acknowledgement.

    These weren't the titanically stupid developments we've seen of late either such as Draigod, the Dreadknights or, well, almost every codex the man touched. These were good ideas here and there, and completely failing to acknowledge them or even account for them in any way is quite frankly lazy. As mentioned before, Ward seemed to be going out of his way to completely ignore the siege masters aspect of the chapter however he could and while bringing back the crusading aspect was a good idea, just ejecting one and substituting it with the other was amateurishly crude on his part. Leaving all of that up to the rest of the team is bad enough, but then there's the issues with the chapters who split off and emulated those aspects, namely the Black Templars. Nothing was done to really differentiate the two in any significant way and, given the severe beating the Templars' lore was given in the past codex, it wouldn't be surprising if it was learnt they massively changed them just so Ward could copy and paste the identity of the chapter from when he started playing in Second Edition.

    Also, yeah, I can entirely understand you not taking the time to reply to every single point given the length of that post.

    Ultramarines: The Movie, Codex: Iyanden and the rest I will agree with entirely, not Storm of Iron though. Personally speaking I think that book does dodge this as it was printed before the Imperial Fists started serving as the scapegoated punching bag for all other chapters, and it did treat them with more dignity than a lot of other depictions. They only really lost thanks to internal sabotage, and a lot of Imperial assets being destroyed prior to their arrival, and were outnumbered several times over by an enemy with every advantage they could ask for. Not to mention that, to draw a comparison, this was one of the few novels where Chaos itself was treated with some actual respect and allowed to win for once back in that time. Say what you want about the Fists, but there have been many more books where they've been thrown to the dogs just as badly.

    Though to answer your point about the tenth company, that might have been the case but as pointed out it only really does a bit more to help re-enforce the idea that the Fists are killed so often they need to have an elite recruitment drive to replace their companies at a moment's notice. Think of every other crusader-esque chapter we've seen from the Black Templars to the Marines Errant. None of them have ever had to really have this as some aspect to them, and despite massive infantry assault tactics used by them, none have ever been noted that they specifically need to have such a recruitment drive to ensure they don't die out overnight. I actually mention the Marines Errant as they're the closest example there is to this, and even that basically came down to stock-piling gene-seed for when they needed to pull back and focus on recruitment.

    The whole point of the recruitment just seems present only to help emphasise all the times they've been killed dozens of times over in the lore and to help justify it. Really though, there were easier ways it could have been dodged which could have been far better or more interestingly handled, better emphasising on the idea that almost all lore is subjective in 40K. Perhaps the book could have stated that their

    Now, on a personal note, I think the reason I take so much issue with this is because we actually save many of the exact points you praised better handled with a successor chapter not too long ago. Recently added to the canon the Excoriators are a Second Founding successor formed specifically from the remnants of astartes companies who saw the worst of the fighting on the Imperial Palace walls. Many of them were those trusted to hold the line by Dorn when he left to help confront Horus and even ten thousand years later they still fight as if Dorn's last order to them was only just issued - "Do not lose."

    They're set up as attrition fighters who did balance out both aspects of siege warfare and crusading attitudes without heavily playing into one another, both of which are seen to be equally balanced in their stories. What's more is that, rather than being mowed down in such numbers they need the single best recruitment scheme in the entire Imperium, they see survival itself as a kind of victory. Admittedly the wiki puts it better than I ever could.

    The point is that like so much in this book the basic initial idea was fine, but the execution and every decision following it either was bad or required every character to sacrifice their grey matter to the Emperor for it to be plausible.
    SonOfDorn216 likes this.
  10. Well that's really the thing, given his hundreds of years of experience and the fact he was effectively drummed up a the paragon of the Fists, he didn't need to really go through that. There was nothing ever really contradicting with the impression Counter gave of the character, where he was dutiful and stone faced but extremely level heaved. As pointed out in the last post, if anything, there was plenty there to directly contradict with the raging sociopath who would happily throw his brothers into meat grinders for personal revenge and even argued it was the right thing to do before the Chapter Master. It's only made all the more obvious when, after being seconded to the Third Company, he shows little to nothing of this insane zealotry as if his switch was only briefly flipped from "sanity" to "BURN EVERYTHING!" mode. Beyond a few comments and points, nothing really showed any kind of arc there or real prompting for an actual character shift.

    Also, Seventh Retribution is apparently another novel the codex made non-canon going by its timeline and having Lysander be at the other end of the damn galaxy at the time it took place. And to think people thought the stuff with M'Kar was bad.

    No argument there. While I do argue that having far too many characters is a major failing of many codices (not to mention naming just about every marine in the Third Company, just to make it impossible for players to create their own ones) Tor Garadon himself was decent for what he was. The only real problem what it seemed that much of the time the codex didn't really know what to do with him after setting up the initial conflict. It had him directly at odds with Lysander, had him watch close to a hundred of his brothers killed in a suicidally stupid attack, and then nothing really comes of it. He has his good moments but for a codex trying to crate an extensive character focused story, it seems like he was used far too much as a narrative tool, the same with Vorn Hagan. Hopefully we'll get some good short stories about the two to correct that though.

    While it would be easy to criticise this as leaning towards 40K's ever present problem (treating ten thousand years as if it were only a couple of hundred at the most) on the surface this was a good move. Chapter relationships were kept to the background until recently with too little really done with them on the whole, and it's only in recent years books have more wholly focused upon how the modern First Founding forces regard one another in M41 (save a few exceptions E.G. Dark Angels-Space Wolves).

    Here's one question though: What did the codex actually do with this to really capitalise upon this new lore? We got that initial introductory bit, yes, but there wasn't anything else really done to build upon that or comment on it in any way. When Tycho shows up during a few of the major battles, Lysander regards him no differently from Sicarius and we've given very little note about any connections or even traditions which might exist between the two. The only thing it really came down to was helping emphasise how massive - wait, pardon me, MASSIVE - a pride was to the Imperial Fists, directly comparing it with the Blood Angels' own problems. There's nothing really done beyond that and even with Ward having written both then-recent depictions of the chapters, he did nothing with them. There was no comment upon Ba'al simultaneously facing down a small Black Crusade and a Tyranid Hive Fleet at the end of M41, no comment upon their possible alliances with a Necron Dynasty or even the suggestions of mutations which plague the Blood Angels. It was a good point, but it was only brought up to help try and excuse Lysander's initial character assassination.

    The truly sad thing though, this isn't new and it's actually an old idea which has been perverted somewhat by favouritism. In older lore it was the White Scars which the Fists had a strong connection to, with the Khan being a sworn brother to Dorn in place of the Blood Angels here. The problem is that little was actually done with it and while adding the Blood Angels to the mix would have been fine, it seems to have only been done to muscle out the Scars from an interesting bit of lore. Given his treatment of the White Scars elsewhere (sudden codex obsession, massive sudden enmity with the Raven Guard etc) I honestly have to wonder if this was done out of personal bias more than anything else.
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