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So Matt Ward Have Left Gw

Discussion in 'Table Top' started by Grigdusher, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. Fenrir Fenrir22 Cipher

    A frend of mine had a 500 to 700 point army 10-14 years ago, he newer got around to finish painting more than 1/3rd of it because it was just to much. This hobby is not one you can buy a starter pack and then go play with the big boys. You have to build up your army your self. But first you have to asemble it, paint it and that takes time.

    And sure the tools and rulebooks cost money. But they can last for years, unles they are something like space marines where every 2 years GW decided to ruin another chapter.
  2. Obviously I'm not going to quote your entire replie(s) but you have many good criticisms. I agree with a lot of what you say. The majority, actually. So don't let the few points of contention I list here in defending the Codex overshadow the fact that I generally agree with you. Oh, and thanks for (in a way) confirming my words to Seth about the original Imperial Fists lore from 2nd edition.

    My favourite Imperial Fists era was the Pete Haines write up in the Adeptus Astartes articles/books. They were the Yang to the IW Yin, and revealed that the Iron Cage was actually a bloody last battle and stalemate, after a campaign by Dorn and the Imperial Fists that single handedly tore apart the entire Iron Warriors empire (a small, but powerful sentence and point often overlooked by IW fans ;)). A stalemate that would have wiped out both chapters (both accounts were written by Haines, which you must know, judging by your above knowledge). So I applaud Haines for his balancing. He also "promoted" Lysander to one of, if not the scariest close combat Space Marines in the Galaxy. So that was the golden era - pun intended.

    What I liked about the Codex:

    - I liked the massive 10th Company revelation; it fixed major problems and at least for me, turned a lot of falcepalm events into a "bring it" attitude. Also, Dorn was all about sacrifice and despite the "tradition" of GW beating up the Fists, they have always been a "last stand, backs to the wall" legion/chapter. The Siege of Terra and their defending of the walls of the Imperial Palace is arguably the most defining aspect in their lore from day one, right up to to me writing this. So , I don't mind the "plant my banner and prise it from my cold dead hands" attitude. It works for siege, it works for crusading and it really is a shout out to the Siege of Terra, in my opinion. Translation: they are the Come at me bro! chapter :cool:. It's almost as if they still fight like a Legion, actually. Which is also touched upon in Lysander's quote about the Great Crusade. Disclaimer: The Storm of Iron and especially the Ultramarines: The Movie wiping out of the Fists 3rd and 5th Companies was still completely retarded. Sounds like Iyanden's was as well.

    - Lysander did finally come around and take his head out of his ass. Seventh Retribution solidified that for me. Great read btw.

    - I really liked Garadon as a character. He is a good balance for Lysander and shows not all Imperial Fists are headstrong diehards. Vorn Hagan seems to be in between the two.

    - I really enjoyed the bond mentioned with the Blood Angels. It makes sense since they were the only two chapters to man the walls at the Siege of the Imperial Palace. Loved it.

    - The actual rules are awesome. While situational, the Warlord traits are super fluffy. Close ranged bolter drill is unbelievably good, as it gives the 3rd Company Imperial Fists arguably the best Tactical Squads in the game. Thankfully they also kept the ability to field the best devastator (PArmour or Cents) units in the game as well. I would say the 3rd coy IF are unrivaled when it comes to space marine infantry firepower on the table.

    - The Relics, while weaker, are very fluffy and the Bones of Osrak are a real stand out - on par with the stuff in the C:SM book, certainly for its price.

    - The City of Death Stratagems are about as fluffy as one can get.

    As for a mangled embarrassment, it must be remembered that the Imperial Fists have been kind of tossed around theme-wise. The Siege of Terra, Crusading and being Terran based were the first "non-vanilla" features they ever had (you can throw in scrimshaw/mortification of the flesh if you want to include the whacky Watson novel). Then came siege in general, Phalanx and stubbornness, all of which lasted for pretty much a decade. And then came their expert bolter marksmanship, then, finally this new mass drop pod, mass assault, mass everything "attritionesque" shock force. I found their write up in the most recent Codex Space Marines was brilliant, glowing even. It did them great justice - GW nailed it. So even if everything you say stands, remember that Sentinels of Terra runs alongside the current Codex, and does not replace it. 90% of the Chapter are represented outside of Sentinels of Terra, so I find your last sentence unfair.

    Nice to see someone who really knows their stuff though :)
  3. Fenrir Fenrir22 Cipher

    There is one thing about IF that i dont quite understand. They are the best urban and siege/defensive fighters in the imperium, with only the iron warriors rivaling them. But by the viedos i have seen them in (miniwargaming and some random TT batreps) they feel so much like ultramarines. Why they dont get +1 cover bonus if they get in ruins or atleast +1 invulnerable save. And please for the love of the Emperor newer mention the Ultramarie movie. That ''thing'' is the greatest act of chaos since matt ward!
    SonOfDorn216 likes this.
  4. Murtag Murtag Cipher

    The whole point is that the initial cost is way too high for new players. Once you're started then you're good. You have paint, rulebooks, tools, and some bits laying around. An extra box every now and then is all you need. It's getting to that point that is too steep. Our 40k group has exploded recently and that's only because of the goodwill of a few of us. We buy our friends a box when we're able about one guy sold like 10k of marines and CSM to use for next to nothing then we parceled it all out. One guy only got to start because I split Dark Vengeance with him. DV is actually a great value. If only they'd do more than DA versus CSM. They make like a 650 point army and that's perfect to me. You get to play little games as you complete a squad each then go up in value. If you want little games then play something like Kill Team where you aren't as limited by squad cohesion. Otherwise that sounds boring as hell.

    And I'm well aware of how much time it takes to be in this hobby. I've been in it for a year and a half maybe and I've done over 3k of space marines, like 1,500 of Eldar, maybe 500 of IG, and probably 1,500 of CSM. plus a handful of Orks. I don't paint or assemble all the time. I can knock out a squad of sniper scouts in a few hours where they're mostly tabletop ready. It's down to practice for me. I really like that part of the hobby. Some of my friends hate it and their stuff is never painted so I end up helping out. One of my friends has painted like 1,500 points of Orks, 1,000 points of CSM, and 500 of IG in like six months while being a full time student and working.

    9/10 people talk to about paying 40k won't do it because of the prices. That's just how it is with people I talk to about 40k. They don't care about starting out small and building up. They see $150 to get the bare minimum as out of the question. That wouldn't even include stuff like paint. That's how it is with every single person. We've had to convince almost every person to join by helping them cover some of the cost somehow. More than one of the old players have stopped because of the prices. More than one of the new players started but became frustrated and quit because of the prices. These are people with fully painted armies and everything. If we didn't have a local store then we would buy as little as possible from GW. Multiple companies make comparable products for way cheaper and now that our armies are mostly done we don't need GW stuff. Or we get it off eBay. Things are going to have to change or they'll never gain enough new players to replace the old ones.
  5. Fenrir Fenrir22 Cipher

    I dont remember how much it used to cost when i originaly got interested in WH40k TT, its been +10 years. But back then it was filthy expensive, and my parents looked at how much a small box would cost ( didnt plan to paint any of them since i was only around 12 ish) but they looked cool. Around the time i moved to the town i live in now i found out 5 guys had what i'd gues would be around 1500 point worth of armies (1 had nids, 2 had orks and 2 SM or CSM cant remember) But they gave up because the only hobby store was 700km away and everything is more expensive here by atleast 5%
    The only reason for why i want to atleast start this hobby is that i have been reading the books alot, Gone through 14 HH books, atleast 14 omnibus books and then bunch of single novels. And i have been reading forums, wiki and playing the games.
    Its only taken me about 10 years to decide to start and i know its going to be hard to get the models to look anything other than something nurgle would puke up, but you newer know.
    Murtag likes this.
  6. Good points. But keep in mind, the Imperial Fists are also the second most strict Codex Chapter in the Imperium (Though it could be argued the Hammers of Dorn are, but as they are Imperial Fists successors, it's a moot point). So Imperial Fists can in many ways resemble Yellow Ultramarines in your standard tabletop games...until you play a Stronghold Assault mission, or fight battles involving tons of destroyable buildings and/or vehicles. As Siege Masters Imperial Fists Devastator Squads (both Power Armoured and Centurion) get the Tank Hunters USR which allows them to reroll failed armour penetration/glancing hits against vehicles (and I believe this extends to buildings/bunkers as well). They also add +1 to building damage chart results. Further more, all Sentinels of Terra have Close Ranged Bolter Drill, effectively making them twin linked with bolt weapons at half range or under, which is murderous in urban, closed in areas. So you basically have to play siege/urban games to see their siege/urban skills come into play, or lots of vehicles, but if the player doesn't take devastator squads, then you won't see anything much except for higher accuracy with bolt weapons.

    TL;DR: Imperial Fists Devastators/Centurions are better at smashing vehicles and buildings than their Ultramarines counterparts, and the Imperial Fists are overall, as a chapter, more accurate with bolter weaponry than anyone, Ultras included.
    Fenrir22 likes this.
  7. Fenrir Fenrir22 Cipher

    I think the biggest difference between the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines codex astartes wise, is that the IF are allowed to think outside of the codex, while ultramarines get punished. Thinking back, Guilliman was considered one of the best ''planer'' out of all the primarcs, but he was not good with combat strategies, so he trained his marines to be good at it. Rogal Dorn was probably only surpased in planing combat by horus, and not by much. But he was not interested in ruling a planet or a system, but whanted recruits. While most if not all the others took direct control of planets and systems specialy Perturabo, Who was quite litteraly Dorn's exact oposite,,, other than the fact that he was almost as good as dorn at making things impossible to attack!

    When i decided to start a TT army i almost decided to go for the IF simply because they are awesome, and they can do some awesome stuff in TT battles.
    SonOfDorn216 likes this.
  8. I don't understand the hate against that movie, it's a fan made movie with an extremely low Budget, what did you expect? Would be great to see a real studio make a 40K Movie though, throw in some scantily clad battlesisters kicking ass and some tyranid xenomorph tribute and you got a new Aliens movie.
  9. It was a fully funded movie by GW.

    Now the Lord Inquisitor is a fan-made movie, with no budget.
    SonOfDorn216 likes this.
  10. Seth Seth Arkhona Vanguard

    Ah you got me there. I was unaware of that fact. But in all honesty I can only talk about those things which I know am I right?
    But Kilbo Fraggins already gave an excellent reply.
    Also you can use FW vanguard siege list for some Fluffy IF battles.
    SonOfDorn216 likes this.

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