You are not taking penetration in to consideration. When you do you quickly realize there is actually a huge diference between ork melee weapons and LSM/CSM as well. Given the fact that ork weapons have less Penetration they actually do the least damage
By approximately 9% when going against 120 toughness. That's a different matter though, as there are not many good power weapon options for orks. We've already discussed to death how bE dropped the ball on armor/toughness/mitigation factors so some people are screwed far worse than others, and the game doesn't have very good reflection of stats.
I understand your point. But consider this. When a ranged guy is shooting at you, he may miss a few shots and you may have the opportunity to react, dodging into cover or out of sight, and because the bullets come from a single direction, the cover will efficiently protect you. If a melee guy starts swinging his sword your way and getting connecting hits, you may dash to cover all you want, you won't be safe from him. Your option to survive is basically to fight him on HIS terms. About SUPER HIGH MELEE damage (back in the day knifes were powerfists): If you are able to 2shot anyone with knifes fast attacks.... I have bad news for the salt level. You can't always react to a melee attack and if two drop someone, no one will ever react to a melee attack in time. About why the damage debuff on range weapons is somewhat relevant (I'm not saying is exactly accurate, but it's relevant, to both the lore, the TT and the logic): Main guns, Rifles are highly impractical weapons when it comes to close quarter combat and by that, I mean WHEN SOMEONE IS BASHING YOU WITH A SWORD! This impracticality could be represented by a suppressive-type bloom on your accuracy when fighting in close combat, but this shouldn't apply to pistols, for they are 1 handed guns, much easier to wield in agitated environments. So, instead of giving a large suppression, the impracticality of a rifle would be represented by a damage debuff when you've been hit and hurt by a melee specialist weapon (sword, axe, maul, fist). Now, I want to bring your attention to a very good question you had: why would you have to fight with melee weapons in melee? Why would you have to play on the melee specialist terms when he comes in his optimal range? Well, here's my answer, as another question. Does the melee specialist magically receives a rifle when you are shooting at him, fighting him on YOUR terms, in YOUR optimal range? We both know that they don't. They have a pistol, but this is a melee, close range weapon. Not a rifle. The melee specialist had to either sneak/tank/dash/rely on team/heal himslef through your optimal range giving you multiple occasions to kill him. But now that he's in his best case scenario, you want to use your main impractical weapon in a very close range combat... I can understand the feeling. And yet... your impractical weapon is more likely to get you killed, because you can't fight properly. So here is where this idea comes from. And please, keep in mind that the debuff applies ONLY IF YOU GET HIT AND HURT by a melee specialist weapon (knifes and nartecium/syringe wouldn't apply it). If the guy managed to get in melee range but is running circles around you without attacking you, or landing a hit, you won't be debuffed. PS: sorry about the text-wall
Surely that just means when the issue of swords being the absolute best weapon is fixed it will just be an issue then? Before the powerfist got gutted I remember getting so frustrated that two clangs would shatter my weapon and I didn't have something equally big to bring to the table. The whole thing seems so simple to me. Eldar have less health and to make time to kill equal in melee they need to do more damage. If weapon damage is normalised then Eldar will be far worse then a marine in combat. We would hit with the same damage but be able to receive less? That doesn't seem right to me.
Focused on op, regarding the weapons being the same, well usually the factions all have the same weapons anyway, mild differences here or there, unique weapons and variants, how they are used, but it can only be emulated to a degree. As to Eldar, you've already, unintentionally, brought up why they hit harder, they are the physically weakest, I refer to their durability though, they are mushy and it is reflected. However they are faster and tend to have stronger hitting weapons, whether ranged or melee, excepting some where they rely on their speed and accuracy. Being able to damage something isn't always about being able to swing harder, it's very important to know where to hit and how to, why punch someone on there back or shoulder, go for their gut, their neck. Usually Eldar are better at these sorts of things, not to dismiss the prowess of Marines or the brute force that Orks bring to bear. As to balance, yes it is a way to balance, is it perfect, unreasonable to expect that, does it work, yes for some and not so much for others. Just from what I can observe but you tunnel vision on things and it blinds you to many othe considerations you could benefit from taking, but who the hell am I to claim such things, no experience with the game and I've no idea how it's changed over the years and why.
You sounds like a poor little LSM child who never gets picked for the team because he/she sucks, then blames everyone else for their incompetence.
Nope, Airborne Melee has gone way beyond the "Glass Potato" we're in a whole new spectrum having been delegated to "Rice Paper Crane in a Wind Tunnel of Warpfire". Same dps as ground assault (tanks) with far less front facing surviveability. This should be countered with airborn melee having a higher damage output than ground based Assault melee. Something similar to the scorpions stealth backstab multiplier would be fine.
The problem with this is, this game is primarily close quarters in enclosed spaces when it comes right down to it. Getting into optimal melee range is usually extremely easy. If you're out in the open with a large distance between yourself and your target, you've already made a tactical error. As an Ork, I make fantastic use of this fact by obliterating my poor foes within my optimal Shoota range. I can out-dps just about every non-heavy weapon in this optimal range. I always enjoy those poor wiggling Space Marines trying to make themselves a harder target when all I have to do is spray in his general direction for superior damage. Anyway, if you force ranged classes to play on the terms of the melee specialists, this will pretty much devolve into the melee dominated mess it has been in the past. Personally, when I D-bash a GA or JPA, and then unload into his head for the kill, I've earned that kill by playing his game and coming out ahead by accurately predicting his fast attack. I couldn't do that if he say, threw a heavy attack instead. I'm going to be honest, though, since I play Orks, our pistols are amazing, so I would probably kill him just as easily with a Slab or Dakka Slugga. I mean, I'm obviously not going to be using my pissing knuckles to fight a melee specialist. There's no way I could kill him that way. It's just waaaay more practical to press a gun to his skull while he's stunned and evacuate his cranium.
We're talking about damage output here. Devastator: (Lead Cannon with Highest & Fastest dps) Slow and cumbersome with higher damage output than Tactical at long / medium / short range Tactical: (Lead Cannon with High & Fast dps) Agile with less damage output than Devastator at long / medium / short range and close combat Ground Assault: (Lead Cannon with Low & slow dps) Agile with the same damage output as Aerial Assault at close combat range only Aerial Assault: (Glass Cannon with Low & slow dps) Hyper agile with the same damage output as Ground Assault at close combat range only The Ranged community need to seriously get some perspective, no way in hell is this ok. Something needs to change, because that^ is not consistent or balanced. In fact its down right biased. To balance this, Ground Assault AND Aerial Assault need to be brought in line with Devastator and Tactical: Ground Assault: (Lead Cannon with High & Fast dps) Agile with the same damage output as Aerial Assault Aerial Assault: (Glass Cannon with High & Fast dps) - Not as high and fast as Devastator due to extra maneuverability.
