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Serious Concern - Will Orks Be Fodder?

Discussion in 'Orks' started by Argentspear, Apr 28, 2015.

  1. Jthaelon Argentspear Subordinate

    I think we can all agree though that Orks should at least get some kind of bonuses for being in mobs rather than nothing at all. I hope even Behavior devs can see that for Orks to feel like Orks, there need to be a lot of them together and a nice damage and health bonus per Ork nearby would definitely help.

    As for class-specific buffs, I would think that those are just native for every class anyway Zah'Wych. I do like those ideas FOR those classes though. Like Meganobz could get a running speed boost at the cost of a small percentage of health like in DoW. And maybe Painboyz can get a choice of 3 or more upgrades for their Dok's Toolz that either increase movement speed, resilliance, or damage of an Ork they inject, and a master upgrade that gives invulnerability for 5 seconds allowing them to heal an Ork near death.

    Loads of Orky awesomeness they could work with! :D
  2. SST_2_0 SST_2_0 Preacher

    There would be no looting out side of the Ork "loota" skill, where you find bits of metal and they just attach to you when you pick it up for that life.

    Any sort of build system for weapons would be more as how Team Fortress 2 hands out items, but instead it would be more about simple general crafting materials, very few different types, maybe on base 'metal'. So amount of metal is dropped based on some crazy math, including what you do (assists/kills, etc) in a single life. Takes X amount of metal for a plasma and Y amount of that same metal for a better gun.

    Make it so simple that just staying alive in contested zones earn you a little. But to balance that weapons end up lost on death. This way even the basic plasma, being reduced cost, is more viable then always using the most snazzed up weapon.
  3. I would be extremely disappointed if we were the same or equal to space marines - unless we out skill an opponent they SHOULD be better then us. But that's where all the above comes in. We could get bonuses for being grouped.. Screaming Waaagh hey maybe even some Wierd Boyz giving some aura powers as well...
    Being spawned on leaders or Nobz etc if your a boy would be awesome as well. I think loads of Greenskins dieing everywhere ( and being able to respawn pretty close by) would be amazing!
    It will give that relentless green tide feel to the race.
    Having more NPC summons to drown an opponent in units would be another good idea.
    But when a group of Nobz hit a group of space marines in close combat I would expect a very very even fight where the over sized weapons and armour and ferocity of the Orkz can really come in.
    I think The Ork race could be done either really lazily or really well, individualism and being the same stat wise to the other races is not really what the Orkz are about (apart from da Bosses). Zerging an opponent is what we are about!
    So I personally really feel this being a TEAM or even BATTLE MMO ( not a single hero run around fetch quest MMO), that we should have our equality through other means- not stats themselves!
  4. there are no NPC spawns

    only thing a might get is tyranid ambushes and stuff like this

    about the spawn mechanics:
    I think the ability to spawn where your leader is is good but maybe to strong
    let's say this only works when the waaagh is happening
    so the enemy will have to aim for the leaders to get rid of the waaagh or they will get overrun

    in general I think most of the ork mechanics should be designed that they all aim for the same goal: closing the gap to the enemy
    so the waaagh mechanic should give advantages for survival and for speed
    BikerTroll and MrTwinkleFingers like this.
  5. We've had this plenty of times before, and I think most people (All Orks, a good chunk of the other players, though Marines tend to disagree, cause, you know, Marines) agree that all Factions should be equal on a one to one scale, though not in the same areas of expertise. It's not just game balance, and the only reasonable way to create a MMO, but also pretty true to the 40k universe, when it comes down to it.

    The idea that a Marine can take one two, three Orks a Marine without breaking a sweat is very cinematic and stuff, but it's also disregarding how equal Orks and Marines are on many planes - What Marines do well is deployment and lightning strikes, plus choosing the most favourable fights, where Orks are more about raw power. This can translate to the Marines being very versatile in-game, having options that can manage any situation with finesse, where Orks are less able to switch around, but can beat most people in their particular field of expertise through sheer volume of fire and blows. A Bolter, e.g., could be longer ranged, more accurate and better at piercing armour, while a Shoota has more spread, but shoots way more bullets that can stagger an enemy up close.

    Anyway, it's a valid, but thouroughly discussed topic, which I think the Devs already has their minds on. They know the lore, but they also know what makes balance and what doesn't, and what makes for a fun, Orky style of game, while still being fun. Being weak isn't fun, and Orks are fun: Ergo, Orks aren't weak - In fact, I'm looking forward to shoving down this fact down the throat on every zogging Marine fanboy who's throat I slit from the very first day I log on xD
    Blakklaw likes this.
  6. But we are not talking about one on one here.. this is a game that is about 100v100 etc. You get into a tank and you can kill anything pretty quick, this isn't COD you have huge warmachines and weapons that can kill most things quick, am I wrong? Why not have said bonuses within groups. Eldar fleet of foot bonus will make them incredibly strong. If they have the same stats they will outmaneuver all opponents on the battlefield. Should they have the same stats as well? I much prefer a game that has different play styles for races that makes everyone in the race play a particular way then a cod shooter with different skins..

    This can also be done with the power of the WAAAGH and group bonuses as well as having leaders as spawn points to really swamp the enemy. All the while you have heavy weapons that can deal with anything. Like being in a mob allows the orks to close the distance faster for example or increase their toughness. I think skill should be the most important factor to the game, and a force that can mob an enemy has many different strategies that they can employ that the enemy cannot. Again this is not a typical MMO or a typical shooter nor should it be!
    Starcraft become famous because it had 3 different races that were all successful when played to their strengths.
    I will use that example ( though i know this an fps mmo) because this is a horde big scale war focused game not a cod shooter. Even in Dow2 Orks had " More units " could " restock units" faster etc. You would really have to mob space marines to kill them.

    You could call an individual zerg weak but in a group with all their different combinations hammering at you they are extremely strong. We are talking about massed battles which top down would look more like an RTS then anything else (looking forward to the war council). Zerging the opponent with huge mob rushes would be extremely fun and rewarding when you overcome enemy positions. Ork tanks could cost less resources etc, there is a tonne of way to balance these things.
    You like cutting the throats of marines? I played the Kommando class in Dow2 ( for the brief time i did play it) and I think a class like that that COULD take out a marine one on one through high powered single attacks which would be awesome.. but would not be as good in a massed fight for example! Going back to that particular field of expertise thing you mentioned prior.
  7. Well first of all, we are talking one on one. We are talking individual power levels. What happens when you get the truly large battles is for a different discussion - This discussion is on the power of each individual warrior on the field. Here, I think you are strawmanning me a bit: I didn't state that all Factions should use the same stats, but rather that the stats are allocated differently for each Faction, but with the same generel amount of points. So no, an Eldar doesn't have the resilience of an Ork, but has more speed, and maybe more accuracy than one. That's still a balanced change, and serves their differences fairly well, while not putting one over the other in terms of general stats. So yeah, I look forward to each Faction feeling different from oneanother, just like you.

    I too believe a Mob Effect would be absolutely boss, but, being a sorta lone wolf kinda player, don't wish for my Kommando to be harmstrung by playing a Faction, who desperately needs the Mob to be effective. I want to be just as equally strong as any other player, within the parameters of my Faction and Class, of course.

    And please, don't use the argument "This is not CoD" or "The game should be like this", because they simply aren't true. They aren't false, either. The game is what it needs to be, not what you, or anyone, believe it should be. The game is, as the Devs've been saying, centering around the 50vs50 to 100vs100 battles, which is fairly large, but it has nothing to do with DoW2 or Starcraft, who are both games that can make those differences in Factions that'll change the amount of units on the field. EC can't do that. Each Ork is a player, and that player is not better or worse than any other - Why should they be limitied to playing in large groups, in a game that doesn't support it?

    Sure, zerging would be cool, and would look cool top-down. But there won't be that amount of players, who'll want to do the same thing, and we see the game over our character's shoulders - This isn't an RTS, no matter how much you want it to be. It's an individual game with a focus on teamfights and larger battles, but each guy is still played by an actual player, who wanna have fun like everyone else.

    I will not stand for this, and I don't believe it will be fun for anyone. Fortunately, the Devs have already said that each character, even FreeToWaaagh-players, will be equal to other players no matter faction, which comforts me - Cause if you were to decide, I would be forced to play out other player's need for cinematic gameplay, and that's not why I play.

    I'm an indpendent green shroom, and I ain't need no nerf. #Orkquality #NoGreenFodder #SaveTheShrooms
  8. Gruk'Lok Blakk Klaw Blakklaw Arkhona Vanguard

    You're fighting a battle you can't win.

    Even if you're an Ork player and they made it this way, you'll recognise quite quick why this game wouldn't be fun, in no way for Orks. A Space Marine taking down three Orks before he begins to get lit up? Dude, Space Marines so far outnumber every other faction by alot. Orks is the lowest population and you can't estimate F2WAAAGH to be "Hundreds of new players that'll be fodder." It just doesn't work like that. This topic has been discussed so, so much and no matter how many times it's been discussed it ends in the same way. Equal for Orks and other races.

    Even if you're not talking about 1 on 1, this would translate onto the field. No, I don't think the game will be a cinematic battlefield. It's a game, with no NPC's. So now imagine Space Marines are holding a Fortress and Orks begin attacking. Have fun when one Marine equals three Orks. Does that mean the standard Space Marine equal one Ork Elite?
    Ork faction would be dead, before the game launched.

    The things you present like "Thousands of Orks dying in droves is good," "Orks being alot weaker and HAVE to stay in a group!" Simply. Doesn't. Work. It would be horrifying to play as Orks and their entire F2W would go dead within days. Heck, even a little squad of Space Marines and one Hero could start taking fortresses from us. Yes, Mob Effect is cool, but it should stack ontop of our equal stats already. Yes, you can have versatile stats like Speed, Durability and such, but not base functionality and prowess. No matter how cinematic you want it to be, it just won't play out like that. Not in the Orks, for that manner. It won't be two Space Marines standing at a cliff, nodding to eachother and then mowing down 20 Orks. The solution isn't "Spawn fast again! That fixes it right?" No, it doesn't fix it. Think of you're a very weak Ork, but you respawn instantly. Now add Snipers, Tanks, Siege Warfare and AoE weapons. You're going to be respawning alot fella and that ain't gonna be cool. "not a single hero run around fetch quest MMO?" Well, it will be like that for the Space Marines.
    I hope you mean the versatile stats and not having clones of each class, since this game is asymmetric. We don't want that either, But Weaker Orks?
    I'm happy the devs have already decided on this, the fact that someone wants Orks to be very weak is horrendous.

    You always manage to Ninja me, with literally saying the exact same thing I wanted to say :D
    Gorkdamn Kommando...
  9. I think that difference you mentioned right there makes it very hard for a newbie orc to take out an Eldar,
    I dont see how an Eldar with more range or forget that lets just say more accurate and more speed could not take out a single orc which is slower or of equal skill if your going to also consider the ork being less accurate.. Headshots still offer a x3 bonus.

    The Kommando in his assassin role vehicle of otherwise is not really a mob character to begin with unless I am missing something... why cant he be more effective at taking out a group with a grenade attack or even heaven forbid sneak amongst a group of marines and do a kamakaze detonation?? Why does he have to go toe to toe with the exact opposite of his class which would be what? A scout with a sniper rifle? Why cant the different classes of a similar vein in different races not excel at different things? For example the Kommando alternative for Eldar etc. These different roles would mean they are not necessarily the perfect match against their polar opposites. I feel the Kommando should have powerful attacks that could take out almost anything by himself in the right situation which I mentioned above.. but be weaker in other instances etc. Again just my thoughts.

    50/50 and 100/100 are very large yes. From their latest release on the game it seems the meta game is all about taking objectives holding fortifications and using the resources gained from those to boost attacking forces or defenders either with supplying a tank or whatever. Again things that can be tinkered with different races in terms of cost per tank etc. This will be decided by the War Council, also where the next attack or defense will be will also be decided by the War Council.

    I haven't played an RTS seriously since War3 all I play now is team based FPS, Chivalry Medieval Warfare mainly. My RTS days are long past and I have no wish to revive them, there have been many hybrid games that overlap genres and many of the strategical elements in this could be considered to have some RTS qualities to them. War Council - Gathering resources- directing resources to regions - getting forces to attack certain region to gather more resources etc etc etc. I do not wish this to be an RTS. I mentioned it would look very much like one from a top down view but this an aesthetic comparison and nothing more. I mentioned starcraft as it had very diverse races with different statistics that could play to their strengths to beat others. I mentioned Dawn of War due to the Way greenskins got bonuses in terms of quicker recovery etc. I expected this response and took a risk in giving these examples but I can tell you that I am in no way wishing this was an RTS. Though with all the original Dawn of War fans which number quite highly I think people will not mind at all the overlapping themes I mentioned.

    Equal if the situation favors their strengths - sure. If an Ork sneaks on a marine and gets him in close combat before the marine could unload too many bolter rounds.. sure. There are so many variables.
    What comforts me more is in their last pod cast was that any new player could KILL a good player. They did not say they would be equal in stats etc but that they could kill them. Killing a good player ( or puts many hours in) can be done in a variety of ways say a tank shot lascannon or even just grouped fire when a heavy bolter is causing the experienced player to feel the effects of the heavy and fire and his vision is blurred and accuracy decreased. Again this is a team tactic FPS.
    In CHivalry a good player can always get destroyed by a nwb with a bit of luck and opportunism and it would be great for that to be here as well which I am sure it will be. I hope that you understand that ANY race which has higher accuracy and a x3 modifier for a headshot will have an advantage against an Ork ;)
    If all Orks are going to be is reskinned space marines then that is going to be really really boring.

    Your playing a race which is the most dependent on being with a group or mob and a game which is focused around huge battles that requires team work... >_<. I cannot even begin to imagine how high an ORKS health would be if their accuracy is decreased and there is a x3 headshot modifier. I think the term cannon fodder is fairly exaggerated here, if a group of any kind of race is not going to use cover and charge blindly at guns they should be toast. Tactics and skill in utilizing your strengths/weaknesses should be the factor to winning battles. Toughness, brute strength, massed fire, close combat are the hall mark strengths of the Orks.
    I would say even with increased HP etc etc if Orkz miss more they can have even BETTER stats then space marines. Head shots will still make them cannon fodder ;) Them needing to get into close combat will still make them more vulnerable to being killed. This is essentially why Spawns etc would help out in that regard.

    These are just my thoughts and they may be the wrong thoughts I am fine with that, I disagree with some of your notions but definitely agree with others, I did misread initially that I thought you wanted things to be completely the same but different skins.. anyways they may be the wrong thoughts for this game or your kind of fun but I will still voice them. I love the Orks they are my favorite race so I really would love for them to capture the feel of them. I really don't think that A marine should slaughter 3 Orks by himself but perhaps stand a good chance against 2! Especially if the battle started at a long range! :D
  10. Obviously even though I was overly dramatic in some areas ( I have explained myself better in the above post) You did not read my last few lines of a Kommando killing a marine.
    No I do not think Ork elites should be taken down easily by a marine at all.
    I actually think an Ork Nob fully armored and with duel weapons should smash marines in close combat!! :D
    I was mainly talking about the lowest class and the mob charge strategy. I think many Ork players would love the feeling of at least having the option of charging as howling horde into a gun line. Which would mean more deaths.
    For example being able to respawn as a particular class during combat, everyone goes Ork Boyz and do some gun line charges...This basic Boy class being weaker then an elite would need a viable option to actually do this such as a closer Respawn. No I do not think a marine should be x3 an Orc Stat wise, but I think if a charging zerg mob can be viable at all then there needs to a lot of bonuses to make that happen ( for my imagination a quicker respawn to be able to do this), again to be clear.. I am not talking about EVERY Ork class.

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