(Part 2) Worse still is that the journey Lysander undertakes has been blatantly copied from one of the very few Imperial Fists novels to be written, Sons of Dorn. It features him being demoted, forced to train and prepair the next generation to atone for his sins, doing so, and redeeming himself. The difference is that unlike that book, there is no point when he changes from overcoming his past mistake and even the times where he is forced to be patient rather than just attacking are only placed upon him by others under his command: "Operating alone, the Sentinels of Terra had little chance of driving the Orks from the Viashan System entirely, but it would take time for other forces to assemble, and in that time, the Ork fleet would continue to wreak havoc across the sector. Yet as Lysander ordered Epistolary Darsway to request assistance from the Nemean fleet still in blockade position around Kalin, Garadon had an idea. Some time later, three Caestus Assault Rams departed the Storm of Wrath’s bays under Thunderhawk Gunship escort and bore down on a lone Ork vessel. It had taken several days – and much of Lysander’s patience – before a suitable ship arrived." I can understand wanting to give secondary characters focus, even if that only adds to the herohammer problem of this fluff, but it never shows any growth on the "protagonist's" part. This is only made worse when the final battle listed in this form against Shon'tu effective repeats itself event for event, only this time with Lysander bowing and wanting Ultramarines and Blood Angels help rather than refusing it. It makes it look more like Lysander's mistake was not letting Ward's other armies do the fighting for them, especially given how much more effective they are presented as being in the pages they show up in. Another problem is that, rather than ending the story there at a somewhat natrual conclusion, it is shunted into taking up most of the timeline. This could have actually been used to expand beyond the single series of events most of the story has been tied into, and does to some degree, but it instead remains completely focused on one single event in their history rather than several. Any strength of a conclusion is robbed by the bullet-point form it is presented in and the fact so much of it seems to have also been written as an epilogue to events. It looks more like the author is adding "Oh, and this happened" when he tried to shoehorn in a grand finale which is definitely this book's greatest sin. The final straw is the massed retcons and blatant plagarism taking place, the previous example just being the first of several. While the overall plot of Sons of Dorn is a generic enough of a one to be repeated without any malice or error, Ward goes the extra mile of retconning the protagonist (the former captain of the 5th company) into never have existing. Instead forcing another into his place. Similar actions are then made with Ward shunting Lysander into other locations across the galaxy, specifically conflicting with certain stories, then taking their elements for his own use.Endeavour of Will has a few very clear similarities with the ending, and that is presented as never having existed. The fact he is stealing plots openly while retconning them becomes clear when the entire plot of the Soul Drinkers novel is inserted into the timeline with his own characters in place of them. Also, with Shon'tu pulling a plan once again out of his arse, rather than the millenia long gambit that book's villain went into with hundreds of years of preparation to achieve it: "999.M41 From the Ashes to the Fire [...] As matters transpire, the 3rd Company does not stand idle for long. Warsmith Shon’tu and the Daemon Be’lakor, united in their desire to see Abaddon’s Black Crusade upstaged, launch an attack on Holy Terra itself. Emerging from a Warp rift that appears in the centre of Phalanx, the unholy allies aim to corrupt the mighty vessel to their purposes and use it to bombard the Emperor’s Palace. Under Garadon’s direction, the newly-formed 3rd Company fight with a determination that belies their inexperience, and the accessways and halls are soon choked with the broken corpses of Daemons. Ultimately, Garadon delays the incursion long enough for Phalanx to rouse its engines and enter the Warp, thus ending the immediate threat to Terra. The mighty vessel hurtles through the Immaterium, and neither side is able to contact their allies in realspace. Garadon and his company gather beneath the Banner of Staganda’s tattered folds for one last effort, and Phalanx’s lower decks are consumed with raging fire as the spectral warriors of the Legion of Damned join the battle. Taking their arrival as a sign that victory may yet be theirs, the 3rd Company counter-attacks, but the battle’s outcome is far from certain…" Given how many of his books have suspiciously retconned the works of Graham McNeill out of existence with very specific contradictions after his attempts to fix the mistakes of the Ultramarines, and how extremely closely this follows the Soul Drinkers' finale, this is not an innocent mistake. This is quite clearly an intentional crime and only enforces how much of a hack writer Ward is. Sorry this post is long but it is also barely scratching the surface in terms of the book's problems, but gives some start on a few of the more obvious ones. These are not issues to easily ignore, they are basic structural problems, errors which should have been never made with a basic degree of editing or research, and even moral failings as writers.
I did not say anything about Xenos. Dont quote me on irrelevant stuff. Ofcourse they got fucked in the Cage because they suck but still , in the cage they were not defending , they were assaulting. The Fists are supposed to be specialised in fortifications. Ask anyone. I even remember a dialog between a fist and a luna wolf , cant remember who , who was asking the Fist what would happen if the luna wolves who are supposed to be the paragons of assault fought the Fists who are supposed to be the paragons of defence. Also , chivalry is a trait of character , when i said knights i did not mean it in the form of combat , these are the Black Templars. I meant chivalrous in attitude. You know , modest , honorable , conservative , selfless.
I hope Games Workshop staff are reading this. I know criticism is on the edge of the fence of acceptable. However this is constructive criticism from fans. We don't represent the entire community, but we represent ourselves. Yes we may be nick picky, but it's my belief the people who usually don't voice their concerns are usually too polite to do so, or are too busy to worry about it. Just saying, more people would love work which is done nicely and expands on established cannon, rather than attempts to re-create it simply to meet personal opinion. Sorry but when you work with materials which people love, you need to have a healthy respect for it, even if you feel it is yours to do with as you please... otherwise your fans abandon you. (Isn't that right Mr Lucas?) Thing is, we are above that and Warhammer 40 000 as a universe is constantly changing and growing. You don't have to treat the lore like it's a holy relic when writing cannon, we are never going to ask that, but what we do ask is at least show it healthy respect by not writing cannon which treats the lore like it's a different sci-fi or something.
This is the smartest ork ever. I agree. Im afraid GW doesnt give a shit about anything other than sales though so the only way to press a message is by boycoting a product. Im not playing TT , i only collected minis for artistic reasons but i have long stopped when i realised how retarded i felt everytime i payed 30 euros for 5 plastic soldiers. But im devouring the books and lore and as an artist myself i find warhammer 40k tremendously interesting to illustrate. Its by far the best fictional Universe to sate my imagination. Yet i see the fluff getting beaten again and again. I dont know whats wrong with them. The codexes are not just rules , they are the core of the fluff. If a codex sucks it hurts the whole franchise , not just the TT. I cant see a reason why they keep Ward. Im not hating him in person nor do i hide voodoo dolls of him under my bed but its plain obvious that the man cannot stand up to the task. Its not a matter of personal opinion when there is such a widespread outrage and neither is a codex just some BL book that you can either take or drop. Some folks here said that we are bitching about the slightest deviation from the fluff. Not so. There must be strict rules that are the pillars of the fluff. Frankly , i dont give a damn if two books condradict the location of some captain. But to defy and change the very character of a founding legion is downright devastating. Each Legion is carefully made to portray certain characteristics and personality traits. When i first got hooked , i was fascinated on how the 18 space marine legions can pretty much cover anyone , all kinds of people can find a legion that more or less reflects their personality. When you start mess with that , it all goes to hell and you get Fifty shades of Ultrasmurf. What can i say , peace...
In a conversation with Dorn, Horus told him that if the Luna Wolves were to assault a fortress being held by the Fists then it would continue forever. Masters of assault vs masters of siege warfare. An unstoppable force meeting an immovable object.
You may be a filthy traitor and a heretic, but the Fifty Shades of Ultrasmurf had me laughing my ass off.
Wasn't quoting you on that at all, chill. I've always known the IF to be specialists in siege warfare, not necessarily always defense. They're really good at fortifications, sure, but does that mean they have to only ever defend? The description you're tossing out was applicable when everyone was unified. After the Heresy, there was no dedicated siege specialist. According to the characterizations, IW were the besieging specialists, and they went heretical. So who was going to take that role? The IF became what the Imperium needed them to. And it's perfectly feasible that they in fact harbored some dislike regarding their status as garrison duty, and thus used their extensive knowledge as all-around siege specialists. They're still really good at defense, Lysander is in fact noted for that, but I like that they're not constrained to one and only one role. I think that labeling all IF as 'chivalrous' because you thought they all should be is not a problem with a book. So what if Lysander isn't a cookie cutter Arthurian Knight? It adds depth to his being. Towards that point, the only reason Pugh never gives Lysander Chapter Master rank is because he's not humble/selfless. There are different shades of everything in a chapter. Tying in to... I don't really see where SoT blatantly contradicted any of the previously established characteristics of the IF. They're still siege specialists. But I don't see why entire legions and all their descendants have to be reflective of one or two traits. Look at the UM. Rigid, structured, adherent to the CA to the letter, but even within that chapter, there is some dissent towards that inflexible structure. Someone could still latch on to someone like Learchus rather than Ventris. IF are still generally 'chivalrous' (even though I don't really believe middle ages chivalry or any real notion thereof is applicable in the Grim Darkness Of The Far Future Where There Is Only War). Salamanders are still generally humanistic, even if Tsu'gan is dismissive towards civilians. Etc, etc. I don't see any egregious lore breaches in terms of changing the outlook on entire chapters (yes, from what I've heard, the IH supplement includes a Clan leader/master/whatever who thinks all flesh isn't necessarily weak, which sort of conforms to what Kyme's written about Manus in his HH works, but even so, that's just adding a spicy extra bit rather than changing their entire ideology).
So your gripe is more about not intricate details about the entire battle rather than a statement like 'they held off the fortress'? "during the Battle of Colonial Bridge on Iduno, that Lysander would at last know vindication. There, three Tactical Squads from the 2nd Company held the bridge leading to the governor’s palace against a cultist horde of some three thousand lost souls." Siege defence. "He became known as a warrior who could hold any position, no matter how indefensible it might appear to others. Yet he was no stranger to daring assaults, either. Indeed, it was following the capture of the Eldar cruiser Blood of Khaine that he rose to the command of the 2nd Company. When the Imperial Fists deployed to break the threeyear Siege of Haddrake Tor, a planet in the merciless grasp of the Iron Warriors Warsmith Shon’tu, it was Lysander who commanded the Drop Pod assault onto the heights. Having secured the high ground, Lysander’s strike force set up teleport homers to summon the Terminators of the 1st Company into the thick of the fighting." Siege breaking. Does emphasize his ability to hold any position. Some reference to usage of drop pods and teleportation to break weak points in the defence. "Chaplain Shadryss had passed on during the Siege of Moros, at last having found a foe canny enough to take his life. Joran Makan, Lysander’s Scout Sergeant during his formative years, was now interred within a Dreadnought’s adamantium sarcophagus, but his mind was so scattered that he no longer recognised his old student." Vague, but a reference to a siege that they probably won. "The 1st Company did not always fight alone. As Lysander’s plans grew ever more ambitious, Pugh assigned additional forces to his temporary command. At the Revold Maze, Lysander’s strike force consisted not only of the 1st Company, but also demicompanies from the 2nd and 5th. At the Blackstar Redoubt, Pugh himself accompanied the 3rd and 9th Companies, content to serve as Lysander’s strategic observer, the better to take full measure of his First Captain’s ability. Nevertheless, and despite his intended detachment, Pugh found himself fighting at Lysander’s side in the final assault on the weapon-forges. He saw the Fist of Dorn shatter the vast black gates, and cheered as loud as any of his battle-brothers as Lysander smote the towering Daemon Prince who served as master of the forge. A day later, when Pugh watched from orbit as barrage bombs collapsed the Blackstar Redoubt’s jagged iron spires, he knew that the time had come. Upon the return to Phalanx, Pugh would step down and take a captaincy. The future of the Imperial Fists would lie in Lysander’s hands." Probably a siege battle. I mean, I get where you're coming from regarding the details of each and every battle, and they don't really describe or really emphasize siege ability well (they do IMO but not as well as they could have), but theyare legitimate examples of sieges where the IF won/excelled in. While tactics are not wholly discussed, we do know that they are good at sieges. Well, like you said, we don't really have the details, so we don't know whether they always just charge facing front and never look back.
Legit gripe, one that I even echoed in an earlier post. Really not even three paragraphs to his career, it's more like "In the wake of Iduno, Lysander earned many more Imperial laurels" and then blah and then 1st captaincy. I get your gripe here, although it's more like a incomplete resume than ignoring the entire issue at hand. It's not entirely sufficient, but again, you could probably write an entire novel on each and ever torture Shon'tu inflicted on Lysander. For a supplement, it seems sufficient, although I will agree that in comparison to other events, it's somewhat underemphasized. However, whatever happened then does recur later in the supplement, and I got the impression that it did affect him and his decisions. Yeah, I can see that. They did copy Phalanx's ending to a degree. If anyone has a facebook account, do you know if it's already been brought up? After reading your posts, I'm warming up to your train of thought. Obviously I'm not as critical, and I don't feel like the character of the IF has been affected, but I do see where you're coming from and am sort of following the thought train with a Daewoo of my own.
Ok ill try and reply to everything u said , cant promise it tho cause im too sleepy , its late in my timezone. First of all specializations does not mean that u cant do anything else. Every space marine chapter does everything. The White Scars have terminators and the Flesh Tearers have devastators. Still ,specialization is of outmost importance. You wont pick Flesh Tearers for their devastators. Its what originally attracts you to an army. When i feel like playing sneaky , ill go with Alpha Legion , not World Eaters. It defines the army. And also , it is very realistic to have armies specialised on certain fields. "Fortification" is just a word , the actual appliance of it in combat is a whole wonderland. About your statement on chivalry , Wh40k has more fantasy elements over usual sci-fi sci-fi and i think that much is obvious. Furthermore , personalities are not affected by the age the individuals exist. There are , where and will always be good guys and assholes ( sry for teh bad word , hope i dont get banned ) About your statement on adding spice. There are two very strong problems with that. When you use a character to give flesh and bones to a legion he must never be a damn contradiction! Lysander is supposed to be the IF face. He should be everything an IF is. He is made to show us what it is to be an IF. Sure , you can have side-characters be like that or after a legion is very enstablished ( ultrasmurfs) you can pop in a guy who has a taste for anarchy. But not the god damn face of the chapter , the dude who is supposed to be used as a reference whenever you are thinking IF............ People like certain armies in warhammer because of their lore , attitude and character. They dont like them for their colours. The folks who are IF fans like them because they like the kind of warrior who is selfless , heroic , stout etc etc. They dont want a damn contradiction to add damn spice. If they want spice , they will read a story about another chapter or warband or whatever. Theres a difference between a "face" character and just any dude who appears in a random book about the army. Lets take my favs , the Word Bearers. Do you think that if they publish a novel with an atheist Word Bearer who doesnt give a damn about the Gods and has regrets about the Horus Heresy would add spice for the fans of WBs? LOL. To close , i havent read said book but i heard what folks here said and read some reviews and i dont have a reason to doubt them , GW has proven its proffesion of taking a perfect lore and turning it into a bad joke. EDIT: Also you are trying way too hard to push your opinion. Your posts cover an entire page. Slow it down , if you dont agree with us here you can just leave. Going berzerk will only hurt yourself.
