Background Image

Scions Of Necrontyr

Discussion in 'Recruitment' started by Xanxas, May 21, 2015.

  1. Well, now that I am no longer sick I can finish my first run of mechanicus. My notes from the final two missions of my first run:
    -Neftusk made a to-scale version of the tomb and all its necrons. He likes to play table top it seems
    -Szaregon Instantly recognizes the imperium is in its death throes
    -Sees the rampant xenophobia/other nastiness of imperium and is disgusted by it
    -Annoyed Faustinus doesn't come in person, and says hell come to him after killing his pawns
    -In the neutral run, the mechanicus leaves the planet after killing the overlord, so the tomb probably finishes complete activation unknown to them while they are gone
    Necroledo likes this.
  2. BrotherShrimp and Necroledo like this.
  3. Necroledo Necroledo Well-Known Member

    I'm loving the addition of these two factions in particular. I've tested both for a bit and, for now, my general impression is that Necrons could use better resistance against crits (since no shields) but damage output can be quite good, while Tyranids feel very fun to play with, although I wish they didn't take so much self-damage when ramming. Nothing a good balance pass can't fix. Compared to BFGA1, I'm really loving the game and the changes to fleet progression feel a bit sad, but justified for the health of MP (I hope they could eventually bring back some of that to SP vs AI though). What are your thoughts?
    Xanxas likes this.
  4. Necrons are pretty bad at the moment. The fact of the matter is:
    -They can't catch anything. They can jump in but the enemy can just fly/stealth away and then kite them forever.
    -Turn rate is abysmal. They can jump, but most of the time they are out of position when they do so. They cannot catch a ship that goes behind them.
    -Jump cool down is too long. Its almost 4x the maneuverability cool down of other factions, despite less agility, distance, and speed.
    -Necron Light cruisers are good. Nothing else is. Cruisers are flat out awful, being viable only due to the starpulse buff bug, which is soon to be removed and rendered useless once more. Escorts explode when looked at, and Cairns don't outdamage Druhkari ships despite their astronomical costs.
    -No variability in ship type. The Kopesh model is even wrong.
    -Necron fighters lose v everything. Even ork craft.
    -Their only anti-ord, starpulse generator, is on A) a longer cooldown than ordanace B) has a far to long wind up and C) is defeated by staggering ordnance waves.
    -Everyone can take anti armor and/or has lances. This negates a large part of the necron ships ability to not die.
    -Repair is very slow.
    -As you mention, no shield=easy crits
    -They actually have the lowest damage per point of any faction

    To quote some others:
    "You aren't the only one. Their lack of shields, slow speed, and terrible turn radius leave Necron ships above Shrouds relatively easy targets unless you really practice with Inertialess Drive jumps. Their fighters are basically garbage compared to every other fleet's fighters and their only anti-ordinance choice worth mentioning is Star Pulse Generator which has a long cooldown, very short range, and also has to be measured against its value as a close range weapon.

    Necrons right now can handle some enemies but only at decently long range, as it is they feel a bit undertuned and most of the tools they have to even that out (commander abilities and ship upgrades, notably the ones that circumvent shields and armor) are limited by game mechanics so it's too easy to just outpace them, stay in their blind spots, and laugh off their slow hull integrity regeneration."

    "Did a bit more Skirmish against AI, @An Old Nemesor I completely agree with you Shroud variants are good but both Scythes and Dirges are terrible. Necrons trade favorably against any type of Eldar from what I've seen (as long as you get them scanner tagged) but funnily enough my worst fight so far was a loss against Orkz with both of us down to 1 remaining ship (my flagship vs one of their remaining Battlekroozers after their Rok got hulked and torn apart) with the win going to them off of strategic point gain. As long as you can hold them at range Necrons pull ahead but the second they get in close they'll outpace your damage and Necron ships don't seem to deal with ramming very well. Another point against the Doom Scythe fighters is they aren't actually good as fighters, Ork attack craft beat them, Tau attack craft managed to beat them, Eldar fighters easily beat them, more and more I'm convinced the anti ordinance method for Necrons is just supposed to be having big enough ships to use Star Pulse Generator and their fighters are just there for scouting.

    Also messed around with a couple other factions. @keroko you may be interested to know you can fit about 3 Explorers on a 1200 cost fleet list (Necrons seem to be the only fleet I've seen so far that can't put more than 2 Battleships on a 1200 point list) and let them play Carrier tag with pretty much anything. Pretty much everything on their list has gravitic hooks so once again Tau escort spam is in full force but Orcas are a bit weak as escorts go and even vastly outnumbering AI controlled Necron or Imperial Navy fleets they were getting the losing end whenever a line ship wasn't involved."

    "Did some light beta stuff, can't connect to the multiplayer side of things so all I have for my 2 skirmish games are against AI.

    Thoughts on Necrons: Necrons are fun but their cost is predictably pretty high, 1 Cairne takes almost half your 1250 fleet point limit and your maneuver options are just normal maneuvering, burn retros, and innertialess drive jump. The lack of shields and slow hull repair rate combined with cost seems to incentivize keeping your fleet together so they can overwhelm a target at a time. Scythes (there are 2 types, harvesters and reapers) seem remarkably fragile for their size class and while they gave Necron ships limited carrier capacity that seems to be down to just fighters with no bomber or boarding craft options. Anything below Scythes in size seems to be there mostly to pad numbers or get more fleet size with the cheapest escort costing around 46 points and Shrouds costing around 150 (not including the 2 variants I didn't play around with).

    Star Pulse generator is in and seems to be the main method for getting rid of incoming ordinance since it fries torpedoes and attack craft in its range, stances are split between reload, lightning arc splitting (range and potential to split damage to additional target with lightning arcs), and reactive hull upgrade which just makes your self healing slightly faster. Every faction, from what I've seen, has an option for replacing crew but Necrons get a resurrection orb commander ability that does so more efficiently on ships around your flagship. Also on abilities something I've noticed is that Necron commander and fleet abilities share a remarkable resemblance to Mechanicus commander and fleet abilities, for instance transdimensional lightning bolt (a short range armor and shield piercing ability) has an AdMech fleet version that works exactly the same with different animations and naming.

    An Old Nemesor said:
    By szarekh that ramming damage! I haven't been able to play because of work but I already fear facing the Tyranids. Good thing necrons can teleport...
    Innertialess drive is nice but it has the microjump range limits from BFGA1 and the cooldown is high enough you're going to have issues using it effectively against fast enemies who can just close the distance again. Necron ships also seem to be a bit slow due to not having an all ahead full equivalent and their turn radius is abysmal."

    So yeah, add in that we got only one new ship to the Druhkari's 17 (a number that is more than double our entire roster), I am not exactly thrilled with the state of our faction at the moment.
    Necroledo likes this.
  5. Necroledo Necroledo Well-Known Member

    Exact same thoughts here. It's nice that we have a beta dedicate to balance, because oh Necrons really need a rebalance (and a couple other factions too). They go from OP if they spam Star Pulse Generator, to UP when they don't. Burst mobility with long reloads ties them in place and the passive regen is, well, as if it wasn't there at all. And I really wish they had more ships too.

    I have just been experimenting in Ranked and kind of found a fleet+tactics that seem to work relatively good, although it's heavily based in patching the weakspots with abilities and massively outnumbered:

    - 2x Cairns
    - 1x Shroud
    - 1x Escort of each type

    - Pyramidal Reconstruction
    - Resurrection Orb

    - Tesseract Vault
    - Nightmare Shroud

    The fleet is meant to be divided in 2 groups:
    1) the 3 line ships, always flying together, with both Cairns flanking the Shroud, which can fly slightly ahead or behind
    2) the 2 escorts

    The main ideas behind this fleet are the following. Your escorts are to fly ahead and capture points and mark ships; at the first sign of trouble for them, phase them to a safer position. Silent Running can really help them too. Meanwhile, the line ships will capture the points closest to your deploy area and slowly advance forward. The Shroud has stealth, so it can trick the enemy into attacking that group of ships, which depending on the case can wreck them as 2 Cairns together pack some serious, long range punch. Line ships should always run in Reload stance, as it helps them with cooldowns and most importantly activates the Nightmare Shroud. They can alternatively use their Star Pulse Generators to get rid of large amounts of ordenance, and to also have one ready if someone gets too close. The Cairn's cone-of-fear ability is good to wreck morale in the middle of a fight. The Tesseract Vault will help you stay in control, so you can use your Resurrection Orb to not lose too many troops, and Pyramidal Reconstruction to fix any crits. Use Doom Scythes to keep line of vision on escaping ships. Use Phase Jump not to jump into Star Pulse range, but to get behind enemy ships (outside of their fire arcs) and catch them as they flee (remember, Cairns have good range). Remember Resurrection Orb can also reclaim your Shroud, should it get scuttled. Basically, death-ball your line ships and use your more mobile escorts to capture far-away points.

    While I'm quite happy I've found a tactic that seems to work, I don't like I have to dedicate so many abilities and upgrades to cover up so many weaknesses. Plus I'd like to be able to use squadrons as more than just spotters, and so many terror tactics aren't going to work against factions that are more determined. Also, I completely ignore the fact we have passive hull regen as it does basically nothing unless you're in the situation of having to chase down ships for ages, and therefore I completely ignore we have a stance that should help us beef it up but does basically nothing.
    BrotherShrimp and Xanxas like this.
  6. I did a small anlalysis that summarizes the necron problem atm on the BFG forums, as follows:
    They just aren't very good for their points right now. Lets take the baseline cruiser, the scythe harvester, and compare it to say, the apocalypse class battleship. Why that battleship? Because it is actually 14 points cheaper than the necron cruiser. So if this cruiser is more expensive than an imperial battleship than it must be at least equivalent right? Well...
    Lets compare, I'll even throw in the common retribution class for extra evidence (7pts more than the cruiser):
    Apocalypse Scythe Retribution
    HP: 2.4k 1.6K 2.4K
    Shields: 800 0 800
    Total HP: 3.2k 1.6k 3.2k
    Morale: 100 150 100
    Turrets: 18 10 18
    Troops: 18 14 18
    Speed: 120 240 160
    Armor: 83/67 83 83/67
    Rotation: 4 10 4
    Raw DPS(not counting abilities): 16.8(4.5k)/15.6(9k) 12 28.6 (4.5l)/22.2(9k)

    So in short the ships in the Scythe Harvesters price range have higher raw DPS, much more health, shields (which regen faster than the harvester does I think) more turrets and more troops. The harvester has better speed and rotation (because CR v BB) but loses overall in those departments when comparing ID vs Imperial maneuver gauge. It also has flat better morale due to the necron +50 morale a racial trait. You'll notice I did not mention armor. Why? Because the armor of 83/67 gets a boost from a certain stance that is always on. This boost brings it from 83/67 to 108/92 (if I remember how armor works correctly anyways), which is vastly better than any necron ship. So the only thing the Harvester has is that it is (theoretically) faster, and starpulse, which is getting nerfed. The two mentioned ships also have abilities, one of which is a nova cannon (200-400 damage, aoe, -100 morale, faster cooldown than pulse I think) and torpedoes (8x 90D, 45 reload) but I left those out because one is a skill shot so DPS is variable (it will always hit a jump on cooldown necron ship for 720D though) The other is disabled if you get to close, so it can be avoided. Also to take into consideration is that necron can always be critted because no shields, while all other races do not suffer from this. On stances, they have the same reload as the imperials, a splitshot not useful in a direct comparison (or most of the time) and a nearly useless healing ability. To extrapolate on the uselessness of the healing ability: despite using starpulse, today I had a scythe harvester lose 1v1 to a emperor. Despite killing all of its ord with starpulse. Oh, and there was a dauntless there too but he got starpulsed. I might have done my math wrong somewhere but this really doesn't seem to be equivalent point for point (aka balanced). Maybe I'm missing something?"
    I'm not the best at math, so point out any errors you see.
    BrotherShrimp and Necroledo like this.

Share This Page