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Response to Melee and Ranged balance 1.3

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Slough_Monster, Mar 7, 2017.

  1. Slough Monster Slough_Monster Arkhona Vanguard

    There are a lot of threads out there in response to the changes brought by content update 1.3. In particular they have been about the balance of melee and ranged. And a lot of them are created by @Njord-Halfhand , who has good ideas, although I think he will agree with me that he is at least slightly biased, as are we all, including me. That said, where I in his shoes I would undoubtedly feel the same. I am at opposite end of the spectrum as him and figured I might as well get my opinion out there as well and am going to preface this that I think we are closer to balance than we have ever been, but there are a few tweaks that should happen.

    As for my ethos so that you have an idea of where I am coming from, like Njord I have been around for a while. I have seen the ups and downs of both parties and participated in the weapon of mass destruction known as the storm bolter during the alpha (before headshot multipliers were removed from it and later added back in near release) and seen JPAs with powerfists one shot groups of people with the ground pound. I enjoy playing both melee and ranged, but definitely play more Tactical than anything else. This started due to a lack of tacs for a guild I used to be in and I became the “token tactical”. Those days are clearly over.

    When I say that the game feels more balanced to me than ever I am mostly referring to the ability of melee classes to get into melee. In my opinion, a melee character should not be able to run in a straight line for any sizable distance and expect to get into melee vs a ranged character, or even against a melee character who uses his pistol. Content update 1.3 has made this so. A melee character now has to be as strategic and tactical as a ranged character in how they move around the map. They need to pick paths that favor them. I am hoping that the days of charging blindly across fields and hallways are over for EC. Invincible JPA shenanigans are also over as of this patch. They no longer have the health to back them up should they choose a poor engagement. I feel this is fine, although I have heard rumors of a health buff incoming. A JPA should have to sacrifice something for extreme mobility and that something is durability. If played correctly, a JPA should always have the drop and the initiative. That is the benefit of mobility. If combined with the same durability as other classes, then we again have an issue of too many pros with little to no cons. A mistake for this type of high risk high reward unit should be extremely punishing, or we are back to the situation where there is no reason to pick a ground assault over a JPA. In my opinion, if someone sees a JPA and is aware of the JPA’s location (not just that it is around, but also its actual location) before the JPA is in or close to melee range, that jpa has done something wrong and lost the initiative that gives the JPA an advantage.

    Where this iteration of the game is not balanced is partially centered around the D-bash. D-bash is broken in many ways, some attached to latency issues. D-Bash into shoot to kill is a bull shit feature that has appeared due to attempts to balance melee and has resulted in extreme penalties for being D-bashed. I don’t think anyone disagrees with this. There are several methods of fixing this including:
    • Lower stun duration (my favorite)
    • Lengthen time until able to shoot after performing a D-bash
    The other issues with D-bash includes last second dodges after clanging, sometimes happening after being hit by the kick/shoulder and the indicator appearing that they are stunned (this must be latency) and durability damage from light attacks from a higher tier weapon. These last two seem to be less of an issue this patch due to melee fights not lasting as long. The only redeeming factor about responding to D-bash this patch is that you have two responses of favorable outcomes, heavy attack and dodge, with only one unfavorable response (keep spamming light attacks after the first). Due to the long animation of D-bash, it is fairly easy to avoid and if the opponent is not using lock-on, to punish.

    The other issue with ranged vs melee is constant bolter, shoota, and catapult buffs combined with toughness/penetration value changes. These guns are extremely good and versatile right now and this is partly due to the hip fire buff a few patches ago that I regard as unwarranted. You should have to ADS to have good accuracy. The game right now promotes hip fire due to accuracy and mobility it gives, which puts melee, especially ground assaults, in a difficult position to actually engage due to the shooter back pedaling with accurate fire. I think this buff should be at least be partially reverted. The other issue that has appeared with recent changes is magazine size combined with the new TTK (thanks for bring this to my attention @Dreadspectre, who has made his own post here). Kills are now 1 - 3 bullets less for boltguns (which is a significant amount when it comes to TTK) and mag sizes have stayed the same. A tactical marine can fire a bolter with a drum mag for 10.8 seconds! To put this in comparison it takes approximately 1.7 seconds to kill someone with only body shots (other than eldar, JPAs, and supports). That is a long time of continuous firing and that is a bit over 6 kills with body shots and no missed shots. Clearly that never happens, but that is not the point. The point is that each magazine is incredibly efficient and allows for small down times of vulnerability and an absurdly low penalty for missing shots (there should be some leeway, but that much? I think not). These guns allow for too much leeway in actually taking time to place your shots and promote spray and prey. Drum and Box/extended mags should be reduced, possibly standard as well.

    A side note: if mag sizes are reduced, I think these classes could use a method of dealing shields other than peppering them until it breaks. Either charged plasma shots should stun them again or kraks stuck to the shield should kill them. Both of these methods take planning and execution and reward skilled play.

    I have a suggestion that I would like to see tried out. I know it is unlikely and is a total revamp of the melee system, but it would solve many of these issues. I propose trying to remove all stuns from melee engagements and instead just have damage taken in won clangs (same attack still results in higher tier weapon dealing impact damage or equal tier weapons both receiving impact damage). Replace D-bash with a riposte that simply blocks the light attack and stabs/whacks the dude (this has been suggested time and time again by many different players). Removing control from the player will always be frustrating and D-bash in its current state is frequently frustrating for both parties involved. I also propose the removal of lock-on to allow for skilled positioning to be rewarded and disengagement through juking. I understand that this is just building on THQ’s Space Marine and god knows if it would work, but I would like to see it tried (although I know it won’t be).

    A final argument that I would like to attempt to dispel is the comparison of ranged and melee kill counts. I feel that ranged will almost always outkill a melee unit. A ranged unit’s zone of engagement is orders of magnitude greater than a melee’s. That straight up gives a ranged unit more potential in kills. It is also easy for ranged units to “jack” kills from melee engagements/duels due to the opponent not being able to easily disengage and seek cover or force the ranged unit into a melee duel. I would argue that this is teamwork, but it definitely favors the ranged unit’s kill count. One solution for the exp discrepancy would be to give assists or even critical assets for clangs. Right now you don’t even get an assist for armor damage, so if you got that first hit in, but then clanged with the guy and your buddy shoots him, no assist for you.

    Now that I have written a damn book, I will go back into my hole and leave you all alone.
    Brujah, DongSlayer, Saeritan and 6 others like this.
  2. Who taught this Sloth creature how to make posts? Doesn't he know that well thought out, logical and properly spaced/paragraphed threads get no attention?

    You gotta start with a silly unrelated meme to snag the audience first man...for you I'd recommend:

    Brujah, DongSlayer, Forj and 4 others like this.
  3. SmurfKun Tamu Well-Known Member

    I would like to take credit bug he was allready a monster when I met him. Also can't believe this didn't get a lot of replies/salt/rage/discussion must be due to long logical thread name heh.
    I agree that things need to be changed but eith bE stance on the current system I think it might be beeper of thinking about things to tweek. Like for example standardize all weapon distance so that what works for one won't work for the other (ex axe travels less then sword do a d bash time animation or 1 sec time to bring up a weapon might not matter much to swords but as axe is slower and I believe has less distance coverage that 1 sec is too fast)
  4. Redfingers Recruit

    Many maps are designed deliberately, per Brent, to give an advantage to ranged defenders.

    Waist-high railing for bracing, narrow killing fields, open spaces of hundreds of meters, tight choke point entrances on defendable positions, rooms with surrounding balconies in which you can be hit from multiple angles simultaneously upon entry, boxes that enable tactical marines to stand comfortably out of melee range, and fortress walls designed deliberately to be out of jumping range give ranged units initiative.

    By contrast, the melee class may be relegated to hiding behind a doorway and waiting someone to walk through it, or setting up a corner ambush. While this may be useful in a close quarters defensive situation, it isn't much assistance when you need to cross an open field or enter into a tightly defended zone with multiple fields of overlapping fire and a good vantage point that MUST be entered in order to achieve an objective.

    As much as I'd like to stand in a doorway or a tightly confined space and wait for a devastator to wander dopily over next to me, that is kind of a pipe dream (sometimes literally, see Harkus, ho ho) given the way the objective system is set up on several maps.

    What makes this worse is that shields often do not hold up frontally, hit detection frequently fails, resulting in shots phasing completely through the shield, and of course you are still vulnerable from the sides and rear, which is very dangerous when you are a ground assault breaching a position that has multiple fields of fire, which are often stocked by heavy bolters on balconies directly behind you. On top of that, shields can be easily broken by sustained fire.

    Not to mention grav guns, which are designed to hard counter ground based melee.
  5. Kyros Drakonite Preacher

    I have some discontent for this line of thinking because it doesn't go bothways. Tacts can rush blindly anywhere right now, even in close quarters. Why do Melee get to be tactical but ranged can disregard all tactics and just bumrush anywhere? Isn't it ironic that the least Tactical class right now is well, the Tactical?

    As a Tact right now I don't even fear tiny rooms that give the advantage to Melee's. That speaks volumes of the discrepancy we have right now.

    I agree with everything else btw. I sincerely think Dbash durations needs to be cut in half (1 sec) or be based on the weapon tier. And axes/mauls need to be able to be effective again. Even if it pains my puny Eldar swords.
  6. Remo RemoSupremo Confessor

    Nope, can't do that. I suggested this a long while back and as soon as I did I got bombarded by Eldar wanting keys for Banshees and Scorpions.

    Like, actually pummeled with Eldar, they damn near beat me to death.
  7. Asyran Eldritch Arkhona Vanguard

    Because if everyone is gonna get melee cappers. Everyone is needs to get melee cappers.
    Slough_Monster likes this.
  8. BaronXIII Arkhona Vanguard

    If we want to try and remove stuns from melee, Dbash in particular, that's fine, but then a Dbash that mitigates a fast attack better take a metric shit ton of durability off of any weapon it repels, regardless of weapon tier. Otherwise, you're once again placing ranged players in a situation where they can't disengage/unstick, their melee weapon is leaps and bounds worse so they can't even clang to make up for mistakes, and all melee has to do is stay stuck to an opponent and they will win every time.
  9. Slough Monster Slough_Monster Arkhona Vanguard

    Just an idea. Removing lock-on I think would help a lot with disengaging.
  10. Remo RemoSupremo Confessor

    I say they give it to banshees, but they get nothing else in the process.

    They stay the way they are.

    Sound good?

    That way Eldar can get an extra capper, destroying the point of their specialized classes, so we can get our melee capper (Finally). You know, Space Marines, the guys who can do anything.

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