Discussion in 'PVE Discussion' started by ruititadiogo, Jun 19, 2017.
Okay... What more interesting gameplay? Please provide examples you'd like added.
Broadly thinking, strategy and picking you own routes
Strategy is there in PvE, Brother, and if you don't think so friend me on Steam (ViaVirtus): my guild runs Horde and Lairs almost every night for several hours at a time. We use Discord and are always talking, teaching, learning, and training.
As for picking routes, that's a factor of map design more than a timer issue. With a timer in Lairs you need to take the most efficient route through the area to achieve the objective, just like a SpecWar team does in the real world. The movie Act of Valor showcases this kind of close-quarters, tight unit work in action, as it used ACTUAL SEALs to portray what they do.
For Horde each map is designed with a few "camp" points. You *CAN* vary from that, but by design a lack of defensible position WILL get you and your team overrun in moments past wave 2-3. Stick with your squad, practice good fire discipline, and don't ever take an uncalculated risk. Don't be the Astartes who thinks he's Marneus Calgar reborn...
Lastly, I normally HATE timers in games (can't tell you how many XCom 2 sites I've failed due to time that was otherwise a tactically PERFECT execution,) but I also believe that if the mechanics are tailored to enhance the experience, they should be left 'as is.' I mean they could create a 'casual' mode for PvE, but I'd just as soon they fix Vehicles and Guilds in PvP first, because I doubt I'd ever opt for Casual PvE when Hard mode is so much fun and so rewarding.
First, freaking tag me or quote me man or I have no clue you replied.
Second, I'm talking about real strategy and paths of play within a match. Trust me, I've finished all the game modes plenty of times by now, there's nothing left for me to learn. At this point the only thing that decides if I win or lose a lair/horde is if my teamates act like potatoes, or we get a hard-mode Lair beta when they close off the stairs. I'm not talking about game strategy on such a low level.
On path/route choosing, there absolutely is no choosing in the current lair/horde modes. You always, ALWAYS are in a single room (horde) or are in a pre-determined path (lair) with no branching options. Think of Space Hulk Deathwing (even though it's deadish right now), there are usually at least 5 paths to each location. In addition, the lack of timers allow one to explore the map and experience all it has to offer on the different routes you take.
Seriously you're replying to me as if I'm a brand new player who needs a tutorial, instead of a Vet of this game. I'm sure it's an accident but, there's a big difference.
Anyways, removing timers allows for a more immersive decision making process should they every allow varying routes within the game mode. In addition, it allows teams to take their time and make tactical advances and set up of their teams. You referenced Special Operations groups right? Sure special operations work under a time restraint when they hit the ground, what you are missing is the usual months of back-end work they do to set up the situation in their favor. (Seal Team 6 didn't just show up and make it happen, it took them quite awhile to get to the "ready" point).
There's only one reason timers are in the PVE mode, and it isn't to make things more difficult, it's to prevent games from taking a long time. If the timer was actually there to make it more difficult, then it would be tuned MUCH better for each section to create a REAL rush and almost 99% of the lairs would be failed because of it. At this point, with it's current tuning, it's only purpose is to make sure games don't drag on. And that, I assert, is bullshit. If players want to take the slow methodical way, they should be fully allowed to and difficulty should be scaled up in a more creative way to balance it.
The real question is, why would you dislike the game mode if there was no timer?
I'm a wordy guy to begin with: I try to to give people MORE to read. Will do, though.
I mean no disrespect; I don't know your level of skill so I write generic. That and this isn't a private thread so somebody 'not us' may glean insight from this. Now I'm SURE the game developers want us to look in every nook and cranny and see all the work they put into their offering to us (see the stupid hassle of WoW flight the last few years,) but also if a guy PUGs into a match, the others aren't gonna let his exploring ruin their run (him being one of those aforementioned potatoes.)
TRUST ME, I'm trying to write guides for my guild and for here with screen caps, and I'd KILL to have the ability to move through slower, or have time to get everybody in position to show what a deployment REALLY looks like, but I like the timers so I do the best I can with what I have.
I'd love them to have a PvE team working on this part of EC, but then again I'd love them to have enough to have multiple teams working at once. If wishes were horses, yeah?
We'll have to agree to disagree regarding Horde (I'll explain in a sec,) but since we're talking hypothetical I'd be willing to concede to removing the timer in the Lairs. The objective is to sweep through the facility, completing objectives along the way. You could make a timer for certain sections (as I said before, if it adds to the narrative,) but like the first few levels of them could be done without timer and when it matters have an alert sound play.
In Horde, however, time management is essential. The waves come, yes, but towards waves 7-9 the 2nd spawn drags its feet getting out and you have to sweep 'em a bit, which if you do too late doesn't give you time to get your game face on for wave 10. In the Warrior waves, you have three stressors acting on your team, first the horde (no sweat,) second the Warrior (you either prepared or you didn't,) and third, the timer that says you have only so long to get it done. I've laid the warrior out and lost to time because of a damn under-stair we didn't sweep right. More often than not the warrior pulls us down or the horde gets us once the Warrior downs the Apo.
As for tuning the timer to be a nail biter every stage, that's a horrible way to design a game. You know this, but game difficulty is a bell curve, not a slope; if the section is too easy people get bored and go elsewhere. If its too hard they nope the fuck out. So having a little (but not much) 'slack' in the timer allows coordinated teams to sweep out for ammo, suicide-refresh, or do whatever they need to do without it being an endless violation-fest.
The more I read this exchange the more it sounds like you favor Lair and I favor Horde, and both have their points whe a timer would or would not matter, Horde moreso than Lair. If I'm wrong we can go from there, I think.
Well, yeah let's clarify things. As I reread my pots I realize things could have been more clear (likely less angsty) on my end.
On Lair - I'd like for timers to remove on the whole, though I'd also just be happy for a single separate mode that removes timers. Doubly so if they could increase the scale of the mode so that there is more of a chance to pick your own route and if difficulty can be properly scaled for the combat instead of the timer (to allow challenging slow advances).
For Horde - I'd truthfully like timers to be removed from this as well, with the caveat that the enemy AI is improved so that you don't end up losing a match because of a single gaunt stuck on some random map snag. If a team of players can last out a wave long enough to defeat it, I believe they've "earned" that win. They shouldn't lose because of a timer. In addition, it would make no sense for the enemy tyranids not to "come to' the players. The whole point of the nids is that they want to kill the players. Having the bugs "avoid" the players, even for difficulty with a timer, is metagaming and immersion breaking in my book (not that you are implying anything here, just pointing out). If they players can last it out, then they shouldn't lose because of a timer. Though something I would support to up the difficulty, is that when the timer runs out the next "wave" of enemies comes in with the current wave that is unfinished. Basically instead of the players just losing because of a timer, they lose because they aren't killing enough and the next wave hits them at the same time as the unfinished current wave and the players will find themselves overwhelmed.
That being said, I would like there to be a "timed run" version of Horde and even Lair too. The timed mechanics still do have a very real place/niche they can fulfill for fun in the game. I don't want to see them entirely go. I just don't want them to be EVERY pve game. Which is why I said when they remove timers it will open the door to other gameplay options. Simply put, most of the interesting game-mode ideas they COULD implement would never work with timers, so to even have a chance at said modes they would need to remove timers or at least entertain the idea for those particular game modes.
Okay, @BaronXIII , I think that's something close to what I could get behind. Close enough we'd just be arguing semantics at that point.