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Putting the Grim and Dark back into EC

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Schwifty, Jul 9, 2018.

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  1. Sad but true ^

    Maybe if enough of us talk about it as if it were not true some quantum entangled universal consciousness will take that into account and slowly begin to weave it into reality.

    How to fix Melee? make Pistols better. Hmmm bit of an oxymoron there.

    I hate myself for resorting to Pistol over primary weapon but its what you gotta do to survive in a game where melee was an after thought in development.
  2. Antheus Fiendly Confessor

    I'd just like to point out the damage mitigation by itself wasn't the problem back in alpha.

    Back in time, you indeed had damage mitigation, but it was on top of native lifesteal and greatly reduced stamina/fuel regen. And it's the mix of these 3 that made the melee what is was.

    And then suddenly, all these 3 aspects got removed at once, and since then, melee is a struggle/underperforming for most players.

    Obviously getting stamina/fuel regen to where it was would be broken as it used to be especially since compared to the alpha, we now have wargear to buff this aspect.

    To me native lifesteal would be but a bandage on an open wound and wouldn't change much in the end.

    But damage mitigation I believe could be a way to investigate in order to find a decent value according to your OP. Tho in the end, it would be a lot of work and investigation, the kind of ressources currently lacking from bE.

    What could be done more "easily" tho, would be to give all the melee classes kinda the same mechanic as Banshees, and upon use would mitigate n% damage for a short duration, probably somewhere between 3-5 seconds if you ask me. The mechanic in itself is already present in the game, it's "just" about a timer and a stat increase.

    The Banshee would/could benefit from it too, but maybe with a reduced % compared to other classes since you got the debuff already.

    If you ask me in the end, any class at all could benefit from it, tho at a different strenght and duration according to the different classes, with a prioritization being like :

    Ground Assaults >= Jump Packs > Heavy > Tacs > Healers
    JojoKasei and DrMauf like this.
  3. Mauf DrMauf Subordinate

    That wouldn't help with what I describe as the "on razor's edge balancing". Melee at range has too little options, ranged in melee has too little options (except clever use of game mechanics like rollex, the actual reason it's such a hot topic to begin with). Your suggestion would only shift everything a bit. What needs to happen is that at the same time, melee get more survivability at range to close the gap while ranged get more standing power in melee so they don't have to resort to 'clever use of game mechanics'. All the while the self-lock down due to melee animations needs to be addressed (completely movement unlock or fasten up, needs to be tried I guess).
    I personally would be interested to see how a movement unlock (even if it means shuffle sliding due to lacking animations) would play out since that would allow melees to put their opponents between them and other foes, negating the 'shooting into melee locked players' problem altogether.
    JojoKasei and BrotherDamnatus like this.
  4. Sprint should still be suppressed while in melee animation, but besides that I'd love to see that. It would also enable ranged classes to disengage from melee by using the environment much better.
  5. Gravord Gravord Active Member

    Shooting stalker bolter while 0.0001 second earlier blocking with a knife is big part of the problem. There should be actual weapon swap animation required to pull out knife and to put it away to go back to main weapon. Currently any semi decent tactical can clang-hip fire stalker bolter/any other weapon, repeat once and JPA is dead. JPA can attempt to use dbash or heavy but in both cases he will be shot dead before slow poke animations ever finish.
    Data8671 and DrDooManiC like this.
  6. Antheus Fiendly Confessor

    It sure would need to be a part of a focused balance melee/range patch, as much as the idea can feel worthless on its own, I believe it makes more sense if used with another suggestion I had done a while ago.

    To make it short with your 2 scenarii :

    "Melee at range has too little options" :

    This suggestion I did just above has the merit to be versatile, one can use it to close the gap, or while fighting to mitigate damage, or even for withdrawing from a dire situation. Apart from this kind of suggestion, nothing more comes to my mind because it makes sense at range, melee has not the edge at all, but this short buff could indirectly help melee players at range.

    "Ranged in melee has too little options" :

    As you suggested earlier there is indeed the "don't get durability penatly on won RPS", I'm not totally sure if it would work or not but it's something I too would like to be tried.

    There is also, flat-out increase durability on knife by n, which serves the same purpose as the "won RPS" except it's 100 times easier to build in.

    Or make new mods for the knife - one such as durability increase and another such as damage increase so your knife can be on paar with a sword but only regarding one of the two aspects, possibly one and a half if you decide to fully commit into MC knife + "new" mod, to me it seems balanced since that's a big investment to attend to in the end, but it's going to prove useful for a player playing melee and range equally for instance. Price be like 100+LP for one of these mods - to be determined ofc depending the success of such mods - and an extra 50 if you pick MC, leaving you with a 150LP investment on top of the rest of your gear to be almost on paar with melee as a Tac, sounds totally fair and doable to me, but that's just me.

    This last one is my fav, a Tac with this is free to choose if he wants to fully commit to ranged damage, or be versatile at the expense of a mod for his main weapon, or a grenade, or a medkit/ammo pack or whatever he would be eager to spare to stand more chances in melee.

    I too would like to see a revamp of melee regarding movement/animation but we both know it's not happening and the best we can do is trying to find workarounds of already existing mechanics to try and make it cool for both melee and ranged players.
    BrotherDamnatus and DrMauf like this.
  7. Catnium Catnium Well-Known Member

    Because of comments like:
    my pistol is my best melee weapon
    And requesting a damage reducing aura ( which if i'm not mistaken has already been tried during alpha)

    These aren't insightful noir solutions to the problems.
    You need to look at the melee system as a whole from the top down . not from the ground up based on situations you find yourself in during regular game play.
    Since regulair game play is way to situational by nature.
    Because of this your ability or inability to kill a player should not be the basis of rebalancing the system since it introduces skill and experience into the equation.
    And we should not ballance around skill.. the system should be balanced around the max skill lvl. and as such we should not concern ourselves with how well people as individuals perform.
    We should concern ourselves with what we consider skill.. rollex, adad strafing, nade bursting, i framing. some call them skills some exploits .. we should stop arguing and simply decide what should be part of the system and what not.

    Arguments such as:
    I can't kill player X because player X keeps clanging and i framing ergo clanging and I framing need to be removed because it prevents me from killing player X while player X can shoot at me with his rollex and distance created.

    Or I can't kill player X because player Y is shooting me while I fight player X

    or whatever else people usually come up with.

    These arguments do not describe what's really wrong .. al they really do is describe a situation that's not favorable to the melee players.. (mostly a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time if you will).
    And as such they are non constructive by themselves.

    when discussing the system we need to not discus skill or situations that are unfavorable to the melee players because these situations will always arise.. this is where player experience and luck ( which i've mentioned before) come into play.
    This is after all a game vs players not AI and those players also have an influence on the flow of the battle creating unfavorable situations for everyone because their goal is to kill you and win the match just like your goal is to kill them and win the match.

    I once started to record my own game play just so could watch it back.. just so i could see wtf was going on in some "suspicious" situations.
    Doing this for over a year now has given me a few good insights on what's actually wrong..
    Its also given me enough experience with the system to make a judgement call and say that for instance the argument from a while ago that being stunlocked in melee was actually a thing are totally bogus and had more to do with either the players skill lvl or his connection or even hardware than the actual melee system..since I proved stunlocking someone with hit animations is literally impossible under normal circumstances.

    Anyways dude really...a damage mitigation aura isn't the way to go.
    It will be impossible to balance since % mitigation will stack with Toughness making a MoN marine way more heavy in ehp than for instance a Howling banshee will be.
    To fix that you'd have to create seperate aura's er race . per mark maybe even per class.. just think of the work involved here.
    Also it's just another statistic the game engine needs to keep track off basically making the game even less optimised...
    After all if your suggestion is to just give melee more ehp we can solve that way easier by just giving them more HP instead of a whole new underlying system with aura's and % reduction calculations etc etc ..
    Data8671 likes this.
  8. Catnium Catnium Well-Known Member

    I would now like to speak about knives for a bid.

    I think giving the durability advantage to the melee classes for free was a bid to much.

    They already nerfed the D-bash capability nerfing the durability as well was imho pushing it to far.
    The biggest problem before was the D-bash headshot apocalypse. the nerf to D-bash for tacks solved this issue completely.

    I believe that the Durability nerf on top of this was pushing it to far.
    Melee already had the durability advantage when taking Axe, Mace and Fist type weapons..
    Swords where already good enough just by their speed alone.. they did not need to also get the durability advantage usually enjoyed by the significantly slower swinging aternative higher impact weapons.
    This not only takes away from what the slower weapons can offer . but also just makes the sword even more go to/ baseline/ best of the best than it already was.

    Currently as it stands beating a tack as a simple chainsword peasant is realy easy if its a 1 vs 1
    you just spam fast attack.. the worst thing he can do is D-bash you.. but thats so insignificant now that you can just roll out of it without taking to much damage. since he can't really follow it up with anything significantly damaging , it also costs the knife wielder durability to use even D-bash.
    He cant HA because you auto win that rps with FA.
    And he cant FA because he can't clang because knifes have no durability.
    .. so.. yeah...endless loop till your knife breaks.

    You basically outlast him break his weapon and get an almost guaranteed kill as the melee guy.

    With nothing but an unmodded basic sword weapon.

    This should at least require a LP investment from the melee players side in the form on Axe or Mace.
    and not just come with his basic weapon just for free if you ask me..

    I know there is rolex.. but I assume that's an unwanted feature we also wanna get removed eventually
    And even with rollex you still win way to easily as a melee with the baseline weapon because rollex or not once your in your swing he can shoot at you all he likes at some point he is either gonna take damage or has to D-bash or clang with you.
    And unless your a complete patato your melee loadouts should always have the stamina advantage in NR of rolls by either higher regen or more stamina charges ( or both if your a Banshee) so you can always just out I frame the rollex if you really have to because I frames means you take zero damages... and melee has more of them.
  9. Varakor Varakor Preacher

    I mean, I'd be happy with the "grimdark" of EC if they just put back in those old, brutal executions, to be completely honest.
    Atsidas likes this.

    Bitch, you take that shit back right now before PETA starts banging on my door for maiming and killing equines of the colorful variety.
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