Ok but i might do some test then i am 100% sure it was 20% damage boost and 20% damage reduction , if in reality it's 30 then it changes everything and a DA enhanced wins in 1v1 against a Tactical survival vialed
From http://forum.eternalcrusade.com/threads/my-0-2-as-far-as-balance-goes.69449/page-7#post-1548084 You're not going to like this, but this is where the idea of a rebalancing around Shuriken's dealing headshot damage comes from. Recap: Headshot damage is unjustifiably too high for most ranged weapons in a game that should have a blend of both melee and ranged at the Tactical Class level. (For those unaware of the balance of melee, reference the melee thread). Specifically tactical weapons. This includes the TLSC and Shoota, even the Bolter. Recap for readers; We sharply disagree on this proposal - on one end it "lowers skill cap" on the other, "it raises it by forcing players to be proficient at both." With a lot of talk of Relic's SM, where we again, sharply disagreed on stats and such. All that said, specifically I think that Headshots should universally be lowered reserving this judgment on Shuriken weapons specifically. But wait! That would make these weapons retardedly OP you wail. I wasn't finished. The idea is for these weapons to get as close as possible to ONLY dealing damage via Headshots. I am obviously reluctant to go completely that route, so I'm using the ASC as a guide. Yes. The ASC is powerful, but it's the FARTHEST weapon in the Eldar arsenal to being OP. It does this by dealing an absolute penance of damage (and currently it may be set a tinge too high) to the body, and its headshot damage is on Par with other weapons of its type. I can't look at the chart atm, but out of personal experience, I would say that the ASC still is reliably outkilled by weapons that share the same class even with even skill and both players keeping to their playstyle. This is in even numbers, under 50m, because the optimal range for an ASC before it's DPS drops off is a mere 15 meters. Why? Because while the playstyle of hit and run is what the Avenger does, it does it's DPS in a long stream, of damage coming in at .08sec intervals compared to a bolter coming in at .18 second intervals, the difference of 1/10th of a second, not that much of a difference till we compare damages. Now, look deeper. At 15 meters, the ASC Immediately starts to lose damage. It tops off at 36 headshot damage every .08 seconds, 17 damage, or 44 headshot damage and 20 bodyshot damage at a much lower interval with paid upgrades to both pen and damage. The chart is wrong, best I can tell why atm is that it doesn't account for T and penetration on specifically the Avenger Shuriken Catapult, which is clearly abysmal - or better yet, totally non-existent without an upgrade- and then it's still severely limited. The stats against high T targets are utterly awful, you'd have to see it to believe it, they get body shot damage for headshots, and against Orks, that's even further reduced. Beyond their 15m both ASC damage stats fall rapidly, and the bolter remains consistent all the way up to 60ms. The Bolter is at full power, with 72 minimum headshot damage 33-36 body shot damage, 83 headshot damage with CQC headshot with 41 for body shots at .18 second intervals, from under 60m. My average T is 120 on my Eldar load outs. My average armor, is around 130, including all my Eldar (DR's and FD's included). I predominantly play DA, which has about 120 armor, 120 T depending on what build I play. Considering the distances, I have about .54 secs to deliver some damage before my interval ends and I endanger myself by taking hp damage because that's what realistic ranged combat is; not utterly spending yourself if you don't have to, you spend your armor and protect your hp. So, the advantage here is less than 15m -AKA Sprint Attack Distance with some sprint in it. If I'm lucky, I have 3 shots inc in .54 secs. They may all miss, they may all hit, ect. For argument's sake, since I'm firing back the opponent, they all hit, and mine all hit. in .54 seconds I'm getting 6.75 hits. I either deal 17x6.75 damage = 114, not enough to break a tactical's shield even on a good day for me, or I deal 36x6.75 damage = 243 freaking damage and I basically maim a 340 combined hp LSM - if he has any T higher than stock, I'm going to deal even less damage. Back at me, the Bolter is going to deal a bare minimum of 99 damage, topping out at 216 damage with a normal bolter, who has 275 combined hp on an armor stacking build. If I get hit, I lose my armor. If I get nailed, I'm now one shot away from death. Against a CQC barrel, I'm taking bare minimum 123 damage for body shots (armor broken on all but armor stacking builds), and a massive 249 damage within my own optimized zone. I am literally one shot away from death in my own turf. So statistically at least with the ASC I'm going to lose on my own ground. But that's ok, what about guerilla warfare and bursting players down? Well above is a pretty great example that in the span of .54 secs within an optimal range, you absolutely must get all headshots, and then not get hit in return for it to be worth it, and that's at 15ms, and I would argue, strongly, that the Bolter is actually better at the ASC's archetype than the ASC is. It's a burst DPS weapon, it shines the most when there's some sort of mitigating factor, like their armor, cover, suppression, or ADAD juking. If you can successfully land headshots with it, you will win, even against weapons designed primarily for that role because if you miss and still hit the target, it's far more forgiving. So while I'm not gung-ho about asymmetrically nerfing headshot damage specifically to allow Shuriken's their playstyle that's the primary reason behind my thinking. If they can't be buffed (and they shouldn't, they feel great until matched with Bolters and Shootas that's ok too. But right now the TLSC is over performing, and weapons like the Bolter do the Skirmishing role far better than the ASC - clearly a misrepresentation of what they're supposed to do. And while we're on uncomfortable and unpopular topics, let's talk about the Bolter in relation to the Heavy Bolter. Heavy Bolter gets 66 Headshot Damage, and 36 to body. .1 sec intervals. Overheats at 60. I want to know how many kills each can get before having to stop in any capacity. First with a regular mag, (30x33/72, 30x41/83) = 990, 2160, 1230, 2490 then box (40x33/72, 40x41/83) 1320, 2880, 1640, 3,320 then drum (60x33/72, 60x41/83 = 1,980, 4320, 2460, 4980. vs Heavy Bolter= 2160, 3960 total damage. Average LSM Tactical Combined EHP is somewhere around 360. So: 30 Mag - 2.75 - 6 kills, CQC: 3.4-6.9 kills 40 Mag - 3.66-8 kills, CQC: 4.55-9.22 kills 60 Mag - 5.5-12 kills, CQC: 6.833-13.83 kills. Heavy Bolter: 6-11 kills before overheating - which is a longer penalty than reloading. This doesn't even come close to talking about the effects this has on melee, but just look at that. Without even needing to reload, a drum mag definitively is a strict upgrade to a Heavy Bolter with only the RoF and suppression being what positively separates these two. However, the Bolter has a scope, is accurate and deadly upwards of 200m+, can actively avoid being headshot while being shot back at, can use cover more effectively, needs no set up time, comes on a melee capable platform, has a fucking sidearm, carries twice the ammo, can carry a servo skull, carries twice the grenades, can currently become immune to suppression via the scope toggle and can capture the points. How on earth then does it have more lethality than a Devastator weapon? Second, I want to compare the Stalker Bolter with the nigh endless salt pit that is the Autocannon. TLR Stalker Bolter - generally fine, only except it does exactly what @ProteusVM says the Lascannon shouldn't have been able to do in Relic's SM, it can fire from while scoped and moving with near perfect accuracy and still deliver 125 damage - which isn't even a headshot - a headshot deals 238 damage against a a MEQ - and reliably get headshots while hipfiring upwards of 20 Ms, which throws off the DA game entirely (again), because the Stalker just has to point in their general direction and deliver a maiming - if not lethal shot without hardly even aiming. Higher T targets it deals 186. With an interval of .6 seconds this again isn't really that big of a deal, it's the fact that there's hardly any issues with moving with it. And third, the Ork arsenal, from the absolute shit weapons like the six Shoota that I haven't seen in use since Alpha, to the Kannon and to some extent - the Shoota - which wait till I get to it! The Ork balance seems all over the board, yet still does not provide the wall of Dakka. It instead relies on accurate firepower and pretends to be everyone else (and in some cases actually does it better lol), which is totally Unorky, cus Green Iz Best! We'll start with the Shoota vs Loota Comparison. Shoota at 32 ms hits its optimal DPS. Further back it loses accuracy and damage, its max is about 80ms. It goes from about 24-26 damage to 19 for body shots and gets 53's fairly consistently for headshots. It has a minimum mag that carries 60 rounds, and a maximum mag that carries 100, and feels loud, full of punch, and proper Orky. 60 Round: 1440-3180 : Marine Kills: 4-8.8 80 Round: 1920-4240 : Marine Kills: 5.33-11.777 100 Round: 2400-5300 : Marine Kills: 6.66-14.72 Loota - 31 and 63 headshots. 90 till overheat. 2790-5670 : 7.75-15.75 Marine Kills. So again, the big drum encroaches upon the Loota's territory in terms of just spitting out kills at ranged without any real need of reloading. So this obviously affects the balance of melee vs ranged as well since a single shoota can totally crush 6-10 players on his own without the need to even stop firing. ASC: 55 Rounds, no modifiers. No Modifiers: 17 and 36 Dmg& Pen Mods: 20 and 44 935, 2.5 MEQ's. (almost certainly dead beforehand) 1980, 5.5 MEQ's 1100, 3 MEQs (almost certainly dead beforehand) 2420: 6.7 MEQ's I think the general rule of thumb here is that statistically good players will capitalize on about a third of the max damage in combat, the average will take a sixth of the average of the range, and bad days will likely be a third of whatever the least damage is possible. So on great days, Ork and SM will probably get max 5 kills with a CQC drum mag before needing to reload. Average days, maybe around 3.33, and bad days will be 2. Stock Bolter, is probably around: 3 kills with nigh perfect aim, 1.5 average, 1 low: This is imo around the best anyone can hope for in terms of flow, this is almost exactly what R. SM felt like and I think that's a great standard to use for all of these weapons, even if they function differently from one another for more reasons than I can probably put into words, but specifically because Tactical's should be capable in melee, and if they can wipe out half a team on their own without even reloading, there is literally no point in trying to balance melee and ranged, you're never going to get there.
With all that in mind, here's the addition: A single non-buffed SM is going to start struggling against a buffed Eldar really quickly, but that's 2v1, so to be fair I'll add another Bolter, so while the DPS of the Shuriken is increased by 50%, the Bolter buddies literally increase their damage, AND survivability by double - which again, the ASC struggles with The, it's damage drops off considerably and that's OK. What you're concerned over is when we add more than one Shuriken's (or really anything) into the mix, each gains 50% damage on the target, making it a really, really dead target very quickly. But that's also the main gimmick, it focuses players to direct their fire at a single source. I know it's an AoE chain, and there's multiple outcomes for this, but as a faction organizer I can tell you most people break the chain quickly by killing the jinxed target, thus there is a "reloading" period between jinx targets - which is long, I'm not sure exactly by how much - unless the teamplay is outstanding and the players coordinate by leaving the jinx target for.last, which carries considerable risk by focusing down a target that drifts out of the jinx, because if either happens the guy doing the jinxing is literally discounted for all input as the enemy continues to fire. All that, and the threat can be immediately emlinated by 3 rounds to the head, delivered instantly upon LoS, before we even start talking about timing. Bolters can take him down from.60m.away at 0.01 seconds into a fight. The more Bolters that are attuned to this fact, the easier their life becomes, and this can be applied in a variety of first strike outcomes. So, going off of my adjusted T numbers, since yes, T definitely matters here, as raw DPS does not account for T modifiers, and it's very possible players all have different T values even among allies. 17-19 damage, 36 headshot damage against anything wearing Red Armor, less for Gold. 20 and 44 if they brought Starshard + Accelerator against 120 T targets, less if they're tougher. Vs 33-36 / 72 or 41/83. We've already determined that it takes less than .54 seconds for a single Bolter to break an Eldar's armor, .72 for lethal. We'll start out comparison with two Bolt Rounds, one at 0.01 seconds, the next at .181 secs. In that time, they can each score between 66-166 damage. At .19 seconds and two Bolter rounds in, the Eldar can dish out 2.25 hits each and this continues predictably forward: that's 57-81 damage per Eldar in the same span of time assuming we're counting the first shot at 0.01 secs that initiated both of these intervals. I can't count the upper limit granted by the Accelerator (44) because it has a different interval that I can't calculate atm. As we'll see below however, it's lesser RoF is significant enough to discount it for now. Assuming that it's 3v3 to begin with; 2 Tacticals, one Apothecary and 2 DAs and one has to be Jinx and he doesn't die instantly, the remaining (2) Eldar now have damage per Bolter Round interval, whereas the three Bolters remain constant. Now let's compare: ASC: 57.375-121.5 damage x 2 = 114.75-243 damage per .18 second interval and thereafter. Bolter: 66-166 x 3 = 198-498. With 33-83 × 3 (99-249) damage per interval thereafter. Again, as before in the 1v1 comparison, the Bolter is a much higher burst damahe weapon and Jinx actually makes this a pretty simple mathmatical equation revolving around averages. If the Bolters keep landing headshots, even through Jinx, the DAs will NEVER catch up to Bolters headshotting them back, so much for skill even at the team level. The fight is over within the span of 3 Bolter rounds, win or lose. That, is sad to behold.. Another bit of stats based proof the Bolter has some issues at the high end. On the flip side, jinx raises the body shot damage considerably, allowing for.more mistakes to be made and it does indeed surpass the Bolter's DPS after a period. This period is irrelevant however as both sides will have already taken casualties within .54 seconds, either killing Jinx and/or losing literally half of their team DPS either way. This btw, must occur within 15ms otherwise the damage is significantly lower and the Bolter remains constant. Not a problem, just a consideration. But that's 3v3. Let's bring enhance in, along with just another Bolter. 4v4. 30%+/-, +50% ranged damage. 2 DAs, 2 Warlocks. I could be wrong about how they stack.but there's not many stats out there so I'll try my best until can verify it against the Tyranids. Here, I took each buff from the base stats independently which I believe is how it works in Garrison. I know they don't stack off each other, that was fixed after the HoT bug. That's, 17-36(1-.5*.3)= ANS+17-36 = 31.45-66.6 *2.25 for 70-149.85 per Bolt Round, and there's two of them: 140-299.7 vs 23.1-58.1 x 4: 92.4-232 per interval. That's nearly dead even in terms of who kills who first due to the health pools, but it's extremely quick, the curve over time is against the LSM, but they can still easily break this fragile comp by downing a DA or Jinx. It's a race against time and a matter of picking the right target in this instance. This is actually balanced on the Eldar side sans the rediculous TTKs we just threw out in regards to melee's survivability, standing in front of either on of these without some sort of defense would be just pure misery. Speaking of defense, let's throw in: 5v5 Protect: Same stats as before, only now the Eldar get +50% dmg reduction, on top of Enhance. ASC's: That's, 17-36(1.85)= 31.45-66.6 *2.25 for 70-149.85 per Bolt Round, and there's two of them: 140-299.7 Vs 5 Bolters, with 85% damage reduction. 33-83(1-.3*.5)=4.5-12.45 (that stat always makes me laugh) x 5 = 22.5-62.25 Very clearly in favor of the DA's. The biggest problem with this team.comp.is that it's actually difficult to aim.and see out of the bubble with these weapons, which is why you'll almost never see DAs in the protect bubble as a meta strategy, it's almost always melee or something else that uses this buff effectively. Apart from that, there's no denying that stacking 3 support buffs and working together will result in a total reversal of the paradigm at 5v5 in vacuum, no cover, nothing but numbers. But that's against vanilla Marines with stats compared at 15ms or less, with only two firing angles and thus are more easily suppressed, a completely useless Enhance Warlock in this situation unless he healbots (remember the TTK measured in less than 2 bolt rounds? He's melee), and if the Marines have Drum Mags, they won't need to reload by the time the Warlocks exhaust their charge, so clearly this paradigm shift is very situational and extremely sensitive to timing. Ofc this doesn't account for further mitigation through healing, on either side for that matter. For example; How does the survival vial, stacking heals and multiple apothecary grenades affect the outcome? How does a servo skull affect the outcome? Now let's not stop there, let's look at CSM (also very interesting stats, do you know what Warp Instability/Hysterical Frenzy does to Bolter Damage?) Here's the math: 33-83*1.5=49.5-124.5 PER HIT. You can literally kill half the Eldar in two hits, SMs fall in 3, as in .54 seconds. Hope that time sounds familiar lol.
With my wrong, massively enhanced stats: Jinx does not make DA's op better than base Boltertacts (in even matchups) Enhance does not make DA's better than base Boltertacts (in even matchups) Enahnce + Jinx does not make DA's better than base Boltertacts (in even matchups) Enhance + Jinx + Protect does make DA's better than Boltertacts. (in even matchups). Let's not forget that it's extremely difficult to aim out of a protect bubble though as it's basically a foggy shower stall. So the buff numbers being much less than they were assumed in the posts above, it may even be possible for the DA to actually be underpowered even while insanely buffed so long as it's fighting on even ground. So that ratio of 1:1 actually transfers to 10:10 and higher. Questions still remain over how that fairs against the servo skull, survival vial, and all the stackable HoT's for both sides. Not to mention in theory at least, TLSC, Plasma, Quicksilver, Stalker, and SB's, Felwrought, and CSM's own psychic powers in play. There's a lot to consider.
I need to go to sleep thats a lot to read i will see that tomorrow but i am just throwing that here: (from @Oan-Mkoll LSM builds and my asc build) DA: 286ehp 120tough =314.05 ehp LSM:353 ehp 130 tough =407.04 ehp 314.05*1.3 =408.265 ehp 407.04*1.3=529.152 ehp bolter = 210.9dps shuriken+enhanced=250*1.2=300dps Da vs tac ttk : 1.763 s tac vs DA ttk : 1.93 s Bolter cqc dps : 233.1 tac cqc vs DA ttk : 1.751 So if enhanced and survival vialed , (with 30% mitigationenhanced) DA wins against tac by far but loses by 0.012sec against a cqc barrel . . . And Eldar are not supposed to facetank... enhanced must be 20% if it's 30% then its too good , might check it tomorrow , anyway omw to beed cyya !
That's a lot of assumptions @Krayt and it doesn't take into account how the Eldar are actually supposed to fight. They are not going to stand toe to toe against an LSM, they're going to rely on burst damage in intervals while trying to dodge bullets coming back at them since they can fire between the spaces of a bolter. They get 2 bits of damage 2 x (17-36) between every 33-83 shot back at them. Like any good player, they're going to conserve their armor as to not need heals and be combat effective against other players without constantly needing assistance from healers - which might be jinxing and absolutely necessary at pushing max DPS. When a single bullet takes out the majority of their armor, and s second totally shatters it, that DA is going back in cover or straight up dying., and quickly starts tilting the effort to make this an argument over raw DPS vs EHP. It just doesn't work that way, the Eldar are not Orks, CSM, or LSM, they're different.
Looks cool and looks like a doable idea with lots of uses though would almost certainly be used as an unfair advantage making them immune to death while activating a cap process. There'd be lots of little things like that that would certainly pop up I'm sure. Maybe make the effect instantly wear off once engaging with a cap point to deter cheese?
Well really what I'm saying here is that this just deflects ranged damage. In code it would be combining the durability effect of the shield with the status effect of Enhance with a blue protect VFX. This means players can walk through it freely, but it's just a barrier to bullets, bombs, and projectiles that each take chunks of durability before breaking down. Walk through it in either direction and it does nothing. Strike through it in melee and it does nothing.
On the topic of Shimmer Shields, the DA have awesome energy based storm shields used for melee only. They also have the dreaded Diresword. I think the hardcore LSM base would literally shit their pants if they knew that both of these things are in the game files, making LSM the only ones with a true Bolter Tactical. My guess is that eventually, DAs will eventually get Shimmer Shields, Dire Swords and the energy Shieldwalls, and they'll be separated between disciplines ranged/melee.
