As a dedicated tank hunter for all 4 factions I want to clarify/correct some of what is being said about the AV weapons. PF/PK kills a tank faster then a MG+MB. Wrong. It takes 1 and 1/4 blasts with the MG to destroy a tank after the MB is placed. This is faster then the 4 swings the PF has to make. Granted only marginally, but still faster. A smart person won't continue firing until auto cool down kicks in. Stopping just before that allows the weapon to cool down faster and doesn't leave you completely helpless if someone jumps out to defend. If you do fire to long and auto cool down initiates then just switch to your knife and BP. That way you can defend yourself against the defender. The biggest downside to this is you need to go back and resupply your MB if you want to destroy another tank with any speed. PF/PK kills faster then a LC. True, but this is due to the LC's cool down between shots. Otherwise they have the exact same AV destroying power on every side of the tank. The bonus the LC has is that the LC can fire from long distance keeping the user safe. Is there risk if the enemy is smart and hides there tank. Yes, but if you know your map you can find decent fire points that will allow you to hit the tank and the enemy won't know where you are (and yes these points are on every map including Blackbolt). The PF/PK is better then the MM. True, but only because the MM player can't defend itself in melee if jumped by a vehicle defender. Other then that the kill a tank at the same speed (2 nearly full blasts from the MM = 4 heavy attacks from the PF). Spawning another tank on top of one parked on a vehicle spawn destroys a tank faster then any weapon currently in the game. 2 quick button clicks and the tank is destroyed and I am safely in a vehicle and can then lay waste to whom ever was trying to stop me from blowing up their tank. Of course this only works if you own the tank spawn. PF/PK destroys a tank faster then a fully manned Pred or equivalent. True, but your in a fully manned Pred therefor protected by armour and are mobile. I think the advantage goes to the tank crew here. The Haywire effect forces the driver to get out and deal with the PF user because otherwise the tank can't move. Well first off why is the driver getting out. 1 or more of the gunners should get out to deal with the issue in the case of a pred (if its a rhino then both the driver and the gunner should get out). If you don't have a gunner you should really be asking yourself why am I wasting this vehicle. If you don't have a driver. Well good on you for defending your tank, but you better hope your good at melee because unless you surprise him you've got a real fight on your hands. JPA+PF=OP. I disagree. Sure they can get to the well placed tank easier, but they are giving up quite a bit of survivability to do so. They will have less armour, less fuel and less armour and fuel regen then the standard JPA. All that just so that they can win melee easier and destroy tanks. IMO not really worth it. A smart ground pounder with knowledge of the map will live longer and do more tank destruction over the course of the game. PF/PK kills a tank faster then a GC/GG. True. As well it should. The Grav weapons are designed around teamwork and therefor should have someone helping them with their AV work. So in my opinion the PF is just fine for what it is meant to be doing. Is it starting to be over used? Yes and no. For AV not really. I see maybe 2-3 guys per game using their PF for anti tank purposes. Mostly I find it being abused in melee, as everyone wants the quick easy kill. Once you learn how to outfight them it is less annoying.
Where do you get this from? The survivability difference I believe most of us are referring to with regards the JPA, is not in comparison to other JPAs - it is in comparison to other melee units who cannot insta-fly out of Dbash stuns or easily escape a disadvantaged position, aka - GAs, TAs, Sluggas. The FistJPA damage output is increased because of the ridiculous 20ft lunge after they land and attack. They can easily approach vehicles or other targets with near impunity. Even when compared to other JPAs; the difference in armour, regen and fuel is so minimal it is barely noticeable in terms of survivability. Armour regen largely allows JPAs to get back into the fight quicker as they dodge in and out of cover, it barely extends surivability.
I'd take Fire Dragon over Fist as anti tank any day. /Sprint up to tank at Elf speed, drop off 2 bombs, ded tank in like 3 seconds and I'm already out of harms way half way to re-supply for the next tank insta jib. Vrs Power Fist / Klaw: Firstly the tank needs to be stationary otherwise your dead as soon as the tank shaves a sliver of paint off your shoulder pad. Rather than the 3 seconds it takes to blow up the tank with Fire Dragon bombs your looking at a good 4 charged attacks, each taking 3 seconds to charge 3 seconds to release and recover from animation. Fist / Klaw has far more risk vrs reward. 25 seconds to kill vrs 25 seconds for dual FD bombs. During that 25 seconds you will be spawned on and taken down by LMB spam from multipule angles while your quick, strong and defensive attacks are Dbashed harmlessly away because ranged /cried for an I win ability and got one. So as Melee is completely obsolete and all we have left is a brainless shooter clone why are we complaining about the fist? Nobody uses it, nobody plays Melee any more, all ranged all the time. 24 /7 easymode LMB spam fest. The only exception to this rule is Scorpion which can down most stuff in 1 strong attack to the back from stealth due to stealth backstab multiplier.
Ok first off, the thread has nothing to do with fire dragons. Btw FD are only an issue due to server issues the class itself is fine. Second do you realize how easy it is to punch someone when they disembark? You can hold a charge and see the guy as they disembark. Its super easy to just insta gib punch/snickt a driver instead of punching the tank. A jpa has it even easier seeing as they can boost backwards right away, lock on, and yoyo right back at the driver. If you think melee is dead you must be crazy. It sounds like you want melee to win no matter what at close range and easily close gaps so other people cant play. If anything melee is still a problem. Maybe now more than ever thanks to lag getting worse making the entire rps pointless.
For the last month I have been using pf in my loadouts as a AV weapon because I thought melta was trash and couldn't find something I liked so I tried fist. At first I hated it because it was too bulky for my play style but adapted and it is now my fav melee weapon. Usually when I have it I target all vehicles first then players. As for it one hitting, only heavy attack does that unless players health is below 75% and low armor for light attack. It takes pratice but the key to melee dueling is to time attacks and know when to dodge them.if you have a good ranged attCker your dead. As for ballencing it my preference would to be either slow it a bit more or reduce damage to players but still leave it functionable as an AV weapon. Price wise it really limits you on your loadouts 500-600 is hearty for one weapon. so I do think that Good as is. As for the jpa problem I think fist should be restricted for them, but once lightning claws are in they can use thoese. Jpa fist is annoying and broken currently with the stun dodge. Ps i agree klaw needs to be on par with fist in a way and eldar need their equivalent. All factions have weapons that are similar in nature but act differently.
I assume this is sarcasm right? Sorry if I'm not seeing the nuanced comedic device you are employing here. If you are somehow being serious, then I'm not sure what game you're talking about. Current status of Melee to Ranged ratio is somewhere along the lines of 80/20. Melee is the primary thing I see, with the occasional newbie running a bolter and the obvious Autocannon/Abaddon spam on Chaos. In fact Chaos is primarily Melee with 3-4 Autocannons. Eldar is a bit better with more of a mix and even Orks, being the best in melee imo have more ranged than LSM and CSM. Melee is so overused currently that it actually causes teams to lose games. So many times have I see LSM in particular running almost all Assaults on defensive maps and they lose all their respawns because they keep bum-rushing the enemy trying to kill them in melee. This happens to CSM as well but it's less prevalent because they use a large amount of Autocannons. Sorry if you were being sarcastic or talking about something else, if you were just ignore my post.
That is exactly what I was talking about. I run mainly GA or Tac AV. Knowing how to get around the map and attack from areas that most tank defenders don't think to watch allows me to sneak up and start destroying the tank before they even know I'm there. Once they figure it out I can take care of them with melee (since most vehicle defenders figure they will have surprise on their side), and then finish off the tank before they respawn. Most JPA go for the direct approach and will either be shot down on the way in or get 1-2 strikes before the defenders start attacking them. If they have to jump away because they are being beaten in combat they are easy to shoot out of the sky. If they try a jump away then slam a simple dodge with a D-bash will stun them and allow you to out melee them. A GA class can dodge out of a D-bash and you won't know what they will do next. They could use any of the RPS system and chances are they will break your weapon stunning you and then finishing you off. A Tac is even better at this. They can also dodge out of a D-bash then either continue to melee, fry you with their melta, or shoot you with their pistol. Sure they don't have the ability to break your weapon by just RBM spamming, but a smart player will be able to handle the lone defender of a tank and then finish the tank off. So yeah I feel that with the extra equipment and ability to surprise the enemy a ground pounder is much more survivable. Especially if the GA puts life steal on a basic PF. Then any damage he takes he can heal back with a quick kill where the JPA can't spare the points that easily.
I think it's generally agreed that Orks are currently the worst melee faction in the game and have become known as "Tauorks" for their reliance on ranged weaponry. The reason you see more Ork ranged weapon usage than LSM or CSM is because our melee options are not really viable. Everything that you've mentioned in terms of a GA "advantage" is something that a JPA can do easier/better. You're also assuming that a JPA player will just charge in like an idiot while the GA or ranged player will play intelligently and sneak up on the vehicle which is pointless; we must assume the players are identical in terms of skill and ability or any comparison becomes moot. So, to clarify; the JPA can better and easier sneak up on a vehicle; they can do it from the ground at least as adequately (if not better) as a GA/ranged player, or they can do it from the sky. The JPA can retreat easier; if the GA/ranged player is getting beaten in combat their means of escape is limited in comparison, a flying JPA is infinitely more difficult to hit than a running GA. With regards dodging out of Dbash; only the JPA can consistently escape a Dbash stun during the stun. Both JPA and GA have the same capability in terms of the RPS system. I would suggest that when talking about players of identical skill the PF/PK user should always win a melee engagement when against a ranged player. Regarding points allocation, this has been brought up before regarding the JPA, but effectively they do not pay for the ability to equip a jetpack. This is included as a free resource. The only "payment" is the fact that they are unable to cap points and take shields in comparison to other melee units. I believe restricting their weapon choices to tiers 1-3 would be a good way of balancing the class so that it doesn't outstrip its ground based melee counterpart in every other aspect (which at the moment it kind of does). Perhaps allow the veterans to take the higher tiered weapons only.
While I agree that yes a JPA can do the exact same things when it comes to sticking to the ground and looking for alternate ways of getting to a tank. I disagree that they can do it easier or better. After all they are doing the same thing so other then the fact that a JPA is easier to see their movement (when not jumping) is the same as a GA or Tac. The only advantage is that they can get there quicker if they jump, and if they jump they run a higher risk of being spotted and marked/called out. This is wrong. All classes (barring the Heavy Weapons) can escape the D-bash stun equally and consistently. I have horrible latency and mediocre FPS and I am able to do it on a regular basis with JPA, GA and Tac. If we are again comparing equal skill then a retreating JPA (one that is loosing combat) is much easier to kill. Now I know your going to say "how? they are much harder to hit then a running GA." and while this is true the GA that is loosing has to stay and fight which means the enemy is also stuck in melee. A JPA that is retreating vs. anyone but a true Shield Bro will find themselves shot out of the air with a quick lock-on and a couple of pistol shots (and that's true even if the shooter isn't using the smart pistol, since the melee lock will give them the first shot and after that they just have to follow the arc of the retreating JPA). The only advantage the JPA has in running away is if more then 1 enemy pops out of the vehicle he can run away instead of getting into melee. Agreed. A PF/PK should win a straight up melee battle if both participants are of equal skill. Since any weapon (aside from the mace\crozius will break quickly in a clang war, but the PF/PK is also limited to the attacks they can reliably us in melee. An opponent of equal skill will know this and be able to counter the attacks. Will that guarantee a win? Not really since a correct and successful D-bash still causes damage to the D-bashers weapon, but it gives them a better then average chance. JPAs suffer from another disadvantage in these cases. They can jump away and come back in with a charge attack, but that attack is considered a fast attack, and anyone who has fought a JPA will know what is coming and prep an undodgeable D-bash. Limiting tier 4 weapons to vets only means it becomes a 1 time use weapon. This would then cause vet players to run with them earlier in the game and increase the gap between new players and vets. As it stands right now a new player who is tired of fighting PF users can spend requisition points to by a PF and head into battle with it. If it was limited to vets then they would have to work their way to lvl 5 then by the PF and try to use it. This would most likely result in the player rage quitting and calling the game a P2W game (which it is not). The PF is fine (the PK needs some work). It's the learning curve that is steep and makes the weapon seem strong. That and the fact that it is currently the flavor of the month. As the game swings more towards a balance between melee and range we will see fewer and fewer PFs on the field, and those carried by diehards who really really want to crush people with a PF.
