Except Tribes Ascend shows Kills and Deaths and a KDR on player profiles. Last time I played TF2 they didn't show deaths, but still showed kills. Yet, that is your opinion, you may not want it, but other people do. Claiming that having a KDR stat plays a psychological role on the player and effects how he's judged by his peers is situational. It depends on the people. If someone is shitty enough to insult you over your KDR then I'm fairly certain taking away KDR doesn't get rid of that. They'll insult you regardless. I hate using the line "It's the internet" but it applies. People are going to be shit heads regardless. I'm sorry but what? If score covers all classes, then how can you accuse someone who gets lots of kills not being helpful to the game? They would generate the same amount of score as someone who is supporting other players. Getting rid of KDR because of support classes is like getting rid of healing done because of assault classes. Still, that's a score boost for someone who otherwise didn't contribute. And there's a lot more people than you think that tag along with the large force and don't do anything. Healing, resupplying, and capturing points generates score for support classes. Killing, bringing down heavy targets, and capturing bases generates score for assault classes. So why should we get a healing done stat but disregard KDR for score-per-minute? And assault classes are the ones who are killing and keeping you alive in return. Again, healing done acts as a gauge for certain classes, but not for others. SPM and KDR are two different stats. KDR contributes to score, but not score to KDR. If you're dying a lot more than you're killing, chances are your score is going to be lower than someone who's getting a lot more kills without dying a lot.
If read this conversation since the beginning of it, and imho Policenaut is right in everything he said, while you are wrong (imo again). I'm too busy to write on everything you said, but let's take this an example. I kinda see this as the "root of the evil". Of course the chances exist, but they would be the same if an unskilled assault-class-player would compare against said player getting more kills without dying a lot. In a well-balanced, which Planetside 2 isn't, O Hell No, a supporting class would get the same amount of score as an assault player of equal skill. KDR does not, in any way, exclusively define your amount to the effort. SPM does. A frined of mine is half blind and thus one of the worst shots I've ever seen. His KD ranges around 0.2 - 0.3, on good days. But guess what, he's also the best medic I've ever had the joy to play with. Of course, there have to be some players with a high KDR for obvious reasons, but another good part of the players just don't have the tools to compete against them. So they rather support them, and with them I mean the whole war effort, therefore sacrificing a high KDR for a good SPM. But they don't actually play for a high SPM, they play for the war effort, and most of all: Fun.
(Quote made smaller to take up less space) Agreed, score per minute is much more indicative of a players effort and usefulness. If someone boasts about their epic KDR, how do I know they're not a useless sniper who just camps a building with a one-shot rifle? I'd much rather have a supporting team contributor than a COD kiddy who thinks kills are everything.
IIRC, KDR wasn't added until the player statistics site went up in April, well after the game's demise and even then the few people still playing didn't want it there. My point is that KDR will play a psychological role on people because it's something that they'll protect and become a timid player as a result, whether it's because they don't want players to judge them or a high KDR makes them feel all warm & fuzzy inside, the end result is the same. If you are disagreeing with that, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. The Crown. I'm sure the people there got loads of kills, all while their entire territory behind it was captured and they were left as a lone island in the middle of Indar. Planetside 2 was balanced in a way where it was difficult to maintain a high SPM through just killing infantry alone but if you were constantly taking bases and pushing into enemy territory, I can guarantee you'd have a high SPM. The main reasons I want KDR gone is because it makes players cautious/timid and that in a game like Eternal Crusade, SPM is a better gauge for player skill. I've never seen a large amount of people idling at a base where there's a battle going on but I have seen groups of people running around kill-whoring at the expense of taking objectives I don't care about healing done. SPM acts just as useful in its stead, since you get exp/points from healing people. It is an aggregate of all your contributions, if you're disagreeing with that then I suppose we're disagreeing on a fundamental level. That's the thing, if you're playing an assault role, you're essentially just limited to killing. If you spend a lot of time dying and walking back from the respawn, it's going to reflect in your SPM, so KDR is redundant. But maybe this guy got tired of dying, snuck around the enemies and blew a generator while they weren't looking and got a ton of points. His SPM would reflect it, while his KDR would show that he was .42 or something.
Sorry, but personally I think this is wrong. Players are going to be timid players because that's how they play. Not because of stats. Sure, maybe KDR will play a part in it, but as you said, short term memory will be enough to determine if someone is dying a lot. If a person dies a lot and they don't like that, then they will begin to play more timidly. I have said that getting rid of KDR doesn't fix timidness, but rewarding aggressive play styles will. Planetside 2 suffers from the problems of not having an end-goal. Therefore there is no incentive to leave places like the Crown and push your territories borders. I'm guilty of staying in the Crown when the rest of territories are being captured. I stayed because I was having fun, not because I was trying to stat-whore. The Crown might be a huge deathmatch fest, but there are also medics and engineers who go there as well to capitalize on the amount of fighting there. Those guys are racking it up in score, but aren't contributing to the overall war effort. In the end, there aren't many good examples of games like Eternal Crusade. Planetside 2 suffers from encouraging solo play, among other design flaws. Which definitely leads to instances like the Crown and kill-whoring. However when I signed up with an Outfit, it was completely different. There was more emphasis on teamplay and supporting your allies. No one cared what your KDR was. But it was still there to look at if you wanted to. And I preferred having it. You cannot use redundancy against KDR when score practically renders the majority of stats redundant. Why should anyone care about their accuracy, healing done, resupplying, tank kills, or best weapon when it doesn't matter because score. Score whoring is just as prevalent as kill-whoring. People will always stat whore. Getting rid of certain stats doesn't change that. It would please just as many people as it would displease.
Accuracy is a ratio, matey (shots fired vs shots hit) so its in with the potentially highly misleading and therefore potentially gameplay influencing stats. If you're a sniper, your accuracy is very important. If you're an Ork Shoota Boy, or toting a heavy bolter, or a piece of artillery, you'd expect your accuracy to be fairly atrocious. And it potentially discourages people from providing suppressing fire if they think "No way, I'm not having my accuracy stat go down and make me look like a noob". Another one to treat with caution, IMO. I have. They're called healers. But flippancy aside, you're right. Observation would tell you that KDR is a useful stat to yourself and others. And it almost is...except that it really, REALLY isn't. As I've said before, KDR could potentially be useful to judge damage dealers (although its potentially deeply flawed), but its not a good yardstick for judging other classes. Even if you're a damage dealer, it may not help you understand your own ability, and its less likely to help others accurately assess your ability if that's all they have to go on. The problem is that you don't know why a random person's KDR is high or low or middling. The obvious answer to a high KDR on a damage dealer is that they're a good player, excellent twitch skills, uses cover well, retreats at the right moments, relies on their group, kills and doesn't die. Or they could be a sniper who withdraws at the first sign of trouble. Or, indeed, anyone who abandons their companions at the first sign of trouble. Or a player who will never get into a fight unless they comfortably outnumber or outpower the enemy. I might want a sniper at my side. I probably don't want someone who has cultivated their KDR because they believe it shows them to be a good player, or shows others that they're a good player (typical reasons for seeing high KDRs on otherwise poor teamplayers). Low KDRs are not necessarily bad either - I gave the example of the stealth assassin before. The meat shield is another rather common one, as are people who guard support classes (you miss most of the action, and if you do get action its normally because everyone else is dead, which means you don't stand much of a chance). Mid KDRs aren't necessarily mediocre. The excellent player from the first example who also regularly steps into roles to guard people, does assassin work and isn't afraid to draw enemy fire as a distraction...hell, that's the guy I really want to be on a team with - someone who plays their class well, not just one flipping niche of it really well. Virtually no-one thinks of KDR like this. People use it as a lazy way to judge people using one number, because its easy and works to some extent, because there will be a tendency for good players to have higher KDRs than poor players. If all damage-dealers have to play in predictable ways that always result in high KDR if you play well and low if you don't, then it will work even better. It won't tell you what it is they do that works, only that it works. That last bit is crucial for self-analysis, because you know what you did. Which is why it can be good for learning...except its not necessarily, because do you know what it 'should' be? If your KDR is low, is that because you're playing badly or because your strategy returns a lower KDR score by putting team goals above personal goals? And what's 'high' anyway? What's the average KDR for this class, or this spec, or this battlefield role? If you're far higher than average, does that mean you're really good or, potentially, that you're spending too much time focusing on kills and not actually performing your role as well as you should? Do you need to find a 'role model' player whose ratios you could look at? And this is just one ratio stat. Which is why I think they're often better off left out. Sometimes they're useful, but they're also misleading - and if people are using it as a way to judge themselves or others, it risks incentivising strategies that benefit personal statistical gain over team victories.
As I've gone on to say when I was talking about Devastators. And you're right, it is potentially flawed, when by itself. But there has always been other stats alongside KDR. Look at Battlelog, or Planetside 2, there are plenty of other stats besides KDR that allow you to determine a players "skill". KDR isn't a number to lazily judge people on their skill. It requires other stats as well. Doesn't mean it should be tossed out completely. If your play style returns a lower KDR then why would you be self critiquing on KDR? Obviously if your play style involves taking objectives and capturing territories at the cost of kills, then you would be using the "# of territories/bases captured" stat to critique. But that stat alone doesn't entirely showcase your play style. You would look at other stats to coincide with it. I never once said KDR was an accurate representation of your ability to be a team player. If you're judging someone's teamwork ability you wouldn't look at KDR. You would look at score, healing, or resupplying stats. Healer's may have a terrible KDR, but you wouldn't look at their KDR. You would look and judge based on the amount of healing they've done, or the amount of revives they have.
I still think all this statistics crap is a load of crap and this game would be allot better without them. The game needs to be fun and watching statistics isn't fun. If people get off by comparing their stats then maybe they should play a stats game or go study mathmatics. And this is just what I feel about this. Sorry if I'm stepping on you toes by saying it.
Sorry if my post seemed like it was aimed at you personally, Freke. It wasn't - indeed, your most recent post demonstrates that you understand the problems fine. I need to get out of the habit of writing 'you' when I'm really meaning 'people in general', and probably out of the habit of posting late in the evening after a bad day's journey home. Sorry! My underlying gripe is that some people 'will' use KDR as a lazy method to judge skill, and knowing that can cause both distortions and e-peen boasting, neither of which are helpful to a realm. I'm not personally convinced that the benefits of including it are worthwhile, but I'm not going to rant and rage at its inclusion, only ever its misuse.
