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Phoenix Lords And Power Levels

Discussion in 'Eldar' started by Killbo_Fraggins, Jul 5, 2014.

  1. tbh I think they would be closer to a hero Space Marine rather than a primarch. Primarchs are pretty damned godly in terms of war. Tbh I don't know too much about the deeds of the Phoenix Lords but I'm sure they are pretty great
  2. Joram Joram Well-Known Member

    Small things, Maugan'ra defeated a tyranid swarm by himself and pulled a craftworld out of the eye of terror.
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  3. I should've brought that up tbh. He's my personal favorite Phoenix Lord. He isn't called "The Harvester of Souls" for no reason
  4. Dakka Face Dakka-Face Subordinate

    I don't get your point. The Gods are all infinitely more powerful than Horus it's just that they never leave their realm when they can make others do their bidding. Just because Khorne wipes out a planet of Guardsmen with bloodthirsters doesn't mean Khorne is too scared to face Guardsmen. If any of the Gods decided to be no fun they could just annihilate Terra with a click of their fingers. Khorne and Nurgle have destroyed planets by willing it. The Great Game of Chaos means they can't just destroy all opposition outright because they'd have nothing left to keep them going.

    And Ollanius Pius is ooooooooold fluff. He's been retconned to hell and back. Hell he wasn't even at the same battle, he was at the Siege of Terra not the Vengeful Spirit. Come to think of it, Guardsmen didn't even exist during the Heresy.
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  5. VoxC VoxC Menial

    This talk of infinitely anything seems a bit zany. The Dark Gods aren't literal gods - they're just the four top Warp entities. The plot to use Horus to kill the Emperor failed: not only is the Emperor still rallying humanity against Chaos (and providing a psychic beacon that prevents them from getting lost in the Warp), but they lost Horus, their greatest champion, and had to replace him with Abaddon (a pale imitiation). Assuming that their objective is still the conquest of the material universe, it makes little sense that they'd sit on their hands if any one of them could wish Terra out of existence.
  6. Thuldarn Gaan_Cathal Well-Known Member

    Domination, not Destruction. They won when the Emperor got put in the Golden Throne. The 40K universe isn't crapsack because the Chaos Gods are about to win, they've won because it's crapsack. The IoM is a fetid mess of fear, superstition and violence that fuels the Chaos Gods more than it's armies harm them, and it's not even close to the enlightened society that the Emperor hoped to use to combat their influence (we told him so, for the record). The Four have the universe more or less exactly where they want it.

    Also, ontopic, the Pheonix Lords absolutely are Primarch analogues of approximately equal calibre. Bear in mind this is the 40K universe where everyone is the best at their thing. Put Alpharius, Corax and Sly Marbo on a forest world and stars would die before any of them found eachother. Irrespective of the TT rules for individual characters which are highly dependent on GW's (terrible) balancing/favouritism process an Avatar of Khaine is, to all intents and purposes, a Greater Demon, and we can just assume he's on par with them based on fluff even if the designers insist he's a slow-walking lascannon magnet. Likewise the Pheonix Lords (who are remarkably inconsistent within their own 'type') are equals to the Primarchs.

    You have to take a lot of the counter-counter fluff with a big pinch of salt because, if nothing else, the Imperium's main anti-personnel tactic should be lining up five Navigators on a hill and just having them look at the enemy army.
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  7. Dakka Face Dakka-Face Subordinate

    Did it really? His physical body is dead and he clings to life as a gestalt being that requires a daily sacrifice of millions. The Golden Throne is suffering irreparable damage and can't sustain him forever.

    He failed completely to unite Humanity. That was what the webway project was for and look how well that went. Not only did he fail in that, he achieved the opposite of everything he ever stood for. Emperor hoped for a humanity that was free of religious dogma and look what he made; the single most repressive and zealous regime to ever exist. And what's more he's the focal point of all worship. The guy that constantly denied being a God is now worshipped as one by every bumblefuck in the Imperium. This is 40k. It's not a setting where good always triumphs, it says right on the tin that there is only the laughter of thirsting Gods.

    So let's get this straight: the Gods manipulate the Emperor's greatest general and own son into not only getting himself killed, but get him to turn the Emperor into a glorified cripple zombie that now represents everything he hated, while simultaneously killing/exiling/turning every other Primarch as well as inheriting legions of new super soldiers, which in turn forced the Imperium to put a cap on how many super soldiers they could have and that is somehow a loss for Chaos? They literally lost nothing and gained half of all Space Marines, while forcing a cap on how many Marines the Imperium can have as well as killing/crippling every major leader humanity had.

    Tzeentch is laughing his feathery knob all the way to the bank with all this reversal of fortune, Nurgle couldn't be happier that people are worshipping a literal corpse, Khorne gets to keep playing toy soldiers with the lives of millions and Slaanesh enjoys all of the above.
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  8. VoxC VoxC Menial

    The Great Crusade wasn't a neutral situation for 40k. The Dark Gods were on the verge of losing everything. By all accounts, humanity was driving the influence of Chaos from the material universe. When the Legions were solely loyal to the Emperor, with the Primarchs in the lead, they represented a force that the gods of Chaos couldn't oppose directly. There were entire civilizations, whole planets full of aliens and humans that worshiped one or the other of the Dark Gods. The Great Crusade was systematically wiping them out in eighteen directions at once.

    Check a map of the 40k galaxy. The Imperium has actually shrunk since the end of the Great Crusade, and it still pushes into every corner of the galaxy. The Emperor had been within a few decades of total control - and he was building a Webway that would make travel through the Warp unnecessary. At that point the Dark Gods would have been truly cut off.

    Horus' corruption wasn't a plan for victory, it was a last ditch attempt to save their access to the Materium. And it kind of succeeded. It's been suggested many times that the Imperium, as it exists in the 40th millenium, is actually better in some regards at opposing Chaos than the Emperor's society had been in the 30th. Two of the three Ordos of the Inquisition do basically nothing except stomp out Chaos. The Sororitas are completely incorruptible. The Grey Knights are incorruptible, and Draigo has for two editions now been stomping around the Warp willy nilly, punching daemons in the throat and pissing in Nurgle's cauldrons.

    If we consider the universe as it existed after the Fall of the Eldar and before the rise of the Imperium, that was the Dark Gods' playground. That's how they wish things could go back to being.
  9. Dakka Face Dakka-Face Subordinate

    The Dark Gods want to give up their legions of Chaos marines and Daemon Primarchs Emperor kindly donated them? Not really. The Imperium however, literally refer to the Emperor and the Crusades as a Golden Age. Literally anytime before 40k was a golden age for them because they are defined first and foremost by entropy; a scientifically stagnant and superstitious society centred around corpse worship. Their Dark Age was their high point for God sakes. The Golden throne requires more sacrifices every day and will one day break down completely, while Cadia is a losing battle. Funnily that's actually a bad thing for Chaos, because Abaddon is following his own rules and might do something the Gods would hate: destroy the Imperium. The Imperium's continued survival at the cost of gradual debasement is what the Gods need if they're to keep themselves glutted on misery. It's grimdark for a reason; mainly that evil is winning.

    Their plan didn't "kind of succeed". It unequivocally succeeded. They have access to the materium, while Emperor doesn't have a body or generals or half his marine army or a webway.

    Also Soritas aren't completely incorruptible. A battle group fell to Chaos in the Ciaphas Cain novels and Miriael Sabathiel is a former SOB now Champion of Slaanesh. It's also implied heavily that a certain Gray Knight is now Slaanesh's plaything. After all if they were completely immune they wouldn't require blood rituals with unfortunate Sisters.
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  10. Thuldarn Gaan_Cathal Well-Known Member

    And yet they are still, canonically, incorruptible. Welcome to the wonderful world of self-contradictory canon.
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