fixed it for ya stop looking at tabletop stats for lore also, how is it that guardsmen can equal orks in melee, and often overcome them? that DOES NOT happen with space marines. and if it happens vs nobs, its because dey'z bein' klevah, not matching them blade to blade.
Guardsmen equaling Orks in melee? That's new to me. And why not look at the tabletop rules as a valid interpretation for lore? Official sources are known to use unreliable narrators and propaganda, usually Imperial biased, so it's not unreasonable to presume that what is said in the codexes and in the novels are just "embellished" stories while what happen on the tabletop is reality. Of course there can be other interpretations who are just as valid. Still, don't think that the Space Marines' depiction as invincible demigod of war/Avatar punching badasses is the only correct one.
Because this was a good idea and happens often and the Guard will definitely overpower a Ork and kill him. Perhaps happend here and there but... Never have I heard such heresy. On topic, I don't hope their strength will rely in numbers or else you're going to be target practice to every other faction in the game. That would definitely not be fun. It could turn out like in Space Marine where one captain whipes out 40.000 Orks, oh god. The boost they would have to make up for that you could only be a serious threat in a group would have to be ridiculous strong. So strong that a armored fort of devastators would have to pack their things and run if they saw such. That's true. As someone else pointed out in the thread, Space Marines and Ork Boyz have somewhat the same base stats in TT.
Take Bolter range in TT, I have heard the conversion that it equates to about 50 meters. Well, let me explain. That is atrocious range, it's worse than a WWII flamethrower and absolutely pathetic compared to a modern rifle. And yet it remains, why, because it's needed for the scale of the mock battlefield and any realistic representation in the rules would require you to ditch the table and start playing in the yard. So yes that is one example of why TT crunch is also unreliable. You don't conquer the galaxy with a gun that can be outranged by a .22 pistol.
Perhaps the people of the 40th Millenium just decided that range is overrated? Although, what I was trying to say is that official sources are deliberately unreliable and leave many things to personal interpretation. The tabletop stats might represent the "real" setting, or maybe not, but since the lore is so vague both theories are potentially valid.
Ah yes, making sense of the map is just part of the game, setting the visual scale is done with the figures being set to Epic Scale. By design it's open to interpretation.
In the table top game orks and space marine have the same weapon skill. The only advantage they have (next to space marines) is that they have more attacks witch makes them deadly. If enough orks survive the fire fight they actually are able to kill the enemy with an overload of hits. So it is not necessary to nerf them more. But the idea of the WAAAGH banners are okay. My idea is that they increase ranged damage and aiming skills.
TT is not cannon, and the stats are not something you can use for lore. kay? kay. read up on it, because i've explained it too many times. now, a guard vs an ork boy. that picture is 1. a nob (waaagh banner) and 2. has the guard about to spear the ork in the eye, before the ork will hit him, and the bayonet will stick out the other side of the orks head. a catachan easily takes on an ork, and ogryns are on par with nobs in strength, and ogryns are not much stronger than space marines in lore. TT SERIOUSLY downgrades space marines. if there are only 1000 of those guys per chapter, then the ultramarines shouldn't exist. commissars fight ork nobs all the time, sergeants and outstanding guardsmen are able to equal orks regularly, and veterans can always equal orks in melee combat--space marines have more training than any veteran guardsmen could ever hope to get. also, about the avatar punching BS--i consider that not cannon. Space marines cannot solo greater daemons, daemon princes, avatars, hive tyrants, or any giant monster with vastly more experience, intelligence, and skill in combat. i can believe them defeating one with the help of an honor guard, veteran squad, and a buddy chaplain and/or librarian...but nobody punched an avatar. greater daemons, avatars, hive tyrants, and daemon princes need to be buffed in lore--they are taken out too easily by every fucking chapter master and autarch. it sickens me. even fulgrim choking one is stupid. i can believe him defeating one, but he should be forced to use every ounce of will and skill and power he has--and should not kill it by CHOKING it when it DOESN'T NEED TO BREATHE and IS MADE OF WARP LAVA. what, he can withstand lava on his skin? thats bullshit, but fine. HE CANT WITHSTAND WARP-LAVA THOUGH. Also, whats the deal with primarchs tanking titan shots and then being killed by bolter rounds to the face? -rant sorry..yeah. (hell, even as powerful as they are depicted in novels, i personally think that the chapter size should be increased to 10,000, and the legion size increased to 500,000. the galaxy is a big fucking place after all...)
I enjoy the way you totally dismiss TT as being a relevant source for lore, and then proceed to illustrate exactly why the fluff (novels) are if anything an even more unreliable example of lore source lol
the thing is, novels vary. many are good, some are bad. generally i have no problem considering them cannon--but no shit there are some books that i discount.
