This.... And I have to say I really cannot disagree with the Putrefaction's concerns. Especially the concerns about EC turning out or feeling like just another version of COD/BF4 with a 40K skin in an open world setting. One of my worries from the earliest reveals for Eternal Crusade was the fact that is would be "one character to rule them all" for each faction. What this implies to me is a very short/shallow progression process for each specific class, which results in no specific identity for each specific character you create. While this is merely speculation and here say, the thoughts still linger. With the close association with THQ's Space Marine( and that games shallow progression system), I feel the worries are a valid concern. For anyone that's played a specific PVP centric MMO for several years, I guarantee there are specific classes and characters you became attached to, along with other characters(which were tied to their class) you played along side, or against, that to this day you can still name. They might have been a prolific healer, or tank, or damage dealer. Their specific class and skill as a player is what identified them in your mind. Then there's the fact that one class per character opens the door to creating "alt" characters. This is the one aspect of those type games that has kept me playing certain games for years. On the opposite side of the spectrum, games like Defiance, where one character rules them all... though I desired to create an alt, there was no real reason to because my first character could do everything. Since it seems we're past the point of no return as far as "one character to rule them all", I'm personally hoping for a very deep progression system for each class. Reaching "Veteran" status on any specific class should be no easy feat. Reaching higher ranks and status should be an epic endeavor, as it is in the 40K Universe. Just because you're a Veteran Assaulter, shouldn't automatically reward you as being a Veteran Devastator/Havoc, Tactical, ect. While you may say you "hate the grind", I'd have to ask how long have you played games you enjoyed that had a hefty grind, versus the amount of time you spent playing games you enjoyed that throw levels and gear at you, almost giving them away? For me personally, it's the difficult grinds and being able to create alt characters(of the same faction) that keep me coming back for more, month after month, year after year. While some might bring to the discussion the fact that some casual gamers might be turned off by a long, difficult grind, I'd say many casual gamers will come and go. EC will hold their attention only as long as it takes for the next installment of COD, GTA or any other major title to hit the shelves. It's the hardcore fans and gamers that will stay with EC, that will keep paying the bills, that will keep the game alive. And I'd dare to say that most hardcore gamers relish the grind, and the rewards that are associated with that grind. The hardcore 40K fans are aware of how long it takes to move up in the ranks. Virtually "giving away" Veteran status, Relic armor/weapons and higher ranks within your Chapter, Clan or Craftworld would seem offensive to most.
If you look at all of the old classics, they all worked this way. WoW, aion, terra, Guild Wars they all worked the same way people had different jobs and some adaptability but you were stuck with your decision. People played for hours, lost jobs from that system. But then again that system is based on heavy vertical progression and huge content. I dont think a game like this has the pure content to support char locking. I mean how sideways can progression go before your at the point where your happy? "Hey i sideways progressed my weapon to the point where i traded all damage for speed, awesome now i can shoot a perfectly harmless light show faster than anyone else". Without higher levels set as a goal ex. Lvl 90, there are really no customization goals other than visual because arguably if the char are balanced then you shouldn't need to change them anyway except for a small sideways progression in which you have to lose something in order to gain. But really how long does that take? A few days at most? If your locked into your char in a game like this ppl will get bored. Plain and simple.
I believe the Sideways progression is over the fact that they don't want you incrementing you health bar and other attributes as you would in a classic RPG. It's not how it is for the TT nor the Lore. The majority of each faction in 40K is made up of individuals with the same parameters of Toughness, Strength, etc. But the members of each faction's Elites tend to have more attacks, and higher levels of skill (WS & BS), but that could be due to accrued experience. And the members of each Factions HQ not only have greater attacks, but are more resilient (more wounds) due to enduring through many fields of battle and possibly a better quality of life-sustaining tech, and have higher levels of reaction (Initiative for TT) which could also be down to experience and training. That's a very limited upwards progression. And some of the progress is done to the actual player improving their skills, techniques, and tactics whilst playing. Most of the difference between units in 40K is down to their Wargear. Which is why I believe BHVR is constructing EC the way they are.
This is why every Twitch where Brent or Michael visits we need to text-chant "PROGRESSION DEPTH !!" to remind them just how deep we want the character options and skill trees. Maybe get Miguel to head lock them It really won't be satisfying to me in a horizontally balanced game if I'm not still grinding out gear options and new perks constantly. I want a main spec Havoc and an AS for squad support and I fully expect to be building on those two for the length of the game.
I think it would have been good if they did stick to one character as your main for the in game depth and immersion and for you to create alts like you would in other major mmo's. I can't really see any other way around how you would do this kind of immersion with having access to all characters unless you do as you say and create different characters and log in and out every time you wish to play that character. A way around it would be for you to be able to set characters up for every class under your main character and go down that route but I can't see that happening although im sure planetside 2 is smart enough to know when you are playing as different classes and records your achievements for that class but does not split up the kdr so if they could do that then it may be away to lift some of that pain of your shoulders
My take is that the RPG system is all about expanding options where the vertical worth of any one option is limited to certain situations: Personal/squad power through strategic flexibility: Your squad needs a Flamer, you need to have the option to take a Flamer. Although the nature of the game, and SNAFU in general, means that you lose tactical adaptability the second you hit 'deploy' . That obviously favors a player who has the capability to switch classes quickly, buuuuut ... The deeper RPG lies in character specialization (everyone's favorite word). The Devs have stated in the past they want to ensure that progression avenues, particularly the deeper choices, have consequences. Hypothetically: So your squad needs that Flamer from your Tactical, and you can always bring it but you aren't necessarily great with it because you invested into Melta and short range survivability to the point where you get stuff like +x% mod capacity on the gun and tougher armour to survive closing on enemy vehicles (as the Melta demands). You're a tank/walker killer compared to other Tacticals but there are players out there who are Salamander-good with Flamers. You can tailor your entire squad with that degree of specificity of purpose, or overlapping purposes. What's not to love ? Incidentally mods are the only true vertical progression system we have atm so that Melta might be amazeballs but you're obviously sacrificing Plasma/Flamer/Bolter proficiency by investing down one path. Miguel said ages ago (and I cannot find the damned quote) that the way they look at a rapid class changing system in this RPG is that you have the option to change and spread your points out but if you want to really focus on 1 or 2 classes/specializations you can indeed put all your time/effort into them, then you will be the player other players seek out when they need to fill a specialized Squad/Strike-Force role. That's the nature of a single server mmo. So single-class away ! This is still a thing we need to encourage, support and pester the Dev team over. I'm going to ask if that's still the intended dynamic in this week's Q&A thread (edit ~ Joram beat me ) and request Michael visit the Twitch stream soon to give us some info pre-Christmas. Some useful quotes btw: Spoiler [Brent Ellison] Our plan with the equipment is to make progression as horizontal as possible – anything you spawn with a significant power increase is accompanied by a Requisition Point cost and will therefore be limited (and provide extra XP to the person that kills you). If the veteran player hasn’t gotten better by playing the game, a new, skilled player who quickly grasps the nuances of the game can beat them. Of course, the new player won’t have access to the same breadth of tools when making loadouts, so the situation in which they encounter each other will make a big difference.
I keep seeing the same two comparisons in regards to a single class system and "Vertical Progression". The two aren't mutually exclusive and I understood from the get go that BE didn't want "leveling" in the normal sense of the word where other MMO's are concerned but instead opt out and go with what they've said all along. This "Sideways Progression" is what I had in mind along with the single character system, I wasn't looking for more health/attributes or skills/abilities as you advanced. I really like the idea of simply unlocking different equipment, weapons, tools etc. Why couldn't you be locked as one class and still keep that sideways progression ? Ideas McGee, I understand what you're saying but even wanting to have a Havoc as your main, if your squad needs a flamer whats to stop you from whipping out a heavy flamer ? I just don't understand with some of these classes and how versatile they can be with so many weapons and equipment they can choose from that we need to be able to switch classes on top of that. You might not be as proficient with that weapon since you might have worked hard with... heavy bolters instead or lascannons but you still have the option to field one correct ? Obviously some classes aren't that adaptable, Assaults might not be able to deal with the plethora of threats Tacticals and Havocs might be able to contend with but they give up that adaptability for mobility and survivability. I understand this brings with it some nasty mismatches at times, mismatches that being able to spawn as any class would solve but again, that's just how I had hoped the game would be. Spawning as any class is how it is, I just have to deal with it but I can only hope that I still have the option to specialize to the extent I want if not close to it. Say your character can unlock 100 things with this sideways progression, if I'm hamstrung putting 25 unlocks into each of the four classes then I have a serious problem with that. Now if I can dump all 100 into one class then that will take the sting out of all of this at least a little bit. I know the Devs have talked about this to some extent, I just don't want to be forced to unlock equipment for other classes because I have already unlocked everything for my main. If I have to start unlocking things for a second class or even worse, be able to max out all classes over time I'm not going to be impressed. (I'm pretty sure the Devs went over that last point somewhere, but I'm too tired to look right now and can't for the life of me remember what was said, forgive my laziness.)
Well yes and no. Yes, because you don't break your class by going down a path, you can still take the gear (once unlocked) even if some of the options/capabilities aren't fully enabled. No because, Havocs don't have access to Heavy Flamers. Actually in TT they have access to Flamers but I think for EC they'll end up in the hands of the Traitor class based on what Brent has said (if they add Flamers). There's some stuff you just can't ever do from every class: What if my squad's playstyle would benefit from a Flamer as a Raptor/Havoc ? I'm probably screwed What if my squad's playstyle would benefit from a Flamer as a Traitor ? I can probably bring one What if my squad's playstyle would benefit from a Flamer with increased range, higher ammunition capacity, more precise flame cone, higher DoT ticks, increased armor negation etc ? Then I'm going to spec that way even if it means I'm not nearly as good with a Plasma Gun Versatility isn't always there. Lascannons, Autocannons, Flamers, Gravguns, Storm Shields, Stalker Boltguns, Thunder Hammers, Lightning Claws, Jump Packs, Reaper/Missile Launchers are all things that can't be simulated by other classes. That's just weapons. But that's much of a muchness ... The intention is for flexibility to be there through the wargear loadout system, rather than just the skill tree alone: However what we know is there are specializations and they do have consequences (we've been assured anyway). EC is fundamentally a team-based Tactical game, where you're relying on overlapping and complementary traits from your squad and things aren't equal no matter what class or sub-class build you use. So just being able to carry a different sized weapon doesn't mean you can fill the same role. There's some effects you can provide but the delivery is wildly different: Brent said last Twitch that classes have veeeery different purposes and techniques, even if they share common elements they are not suited to the same task. Melta tech is a good example here, Raptors deliver their Inferno rounds with maximum mobility (or durability with a Shield) but reduced range and damage potential. Suitable for rapid assault and response. Traitors have some mobility, more range and probably higher damage to adapt to the tactical needs more easily. Most adaptable to a changing situation. Havocs have extreme range, likely a ton more damage but are essentially 'turrets' as far as mobility goes. Perfect for defense. If you change your mobility, effective range and output/capacity then you're in essence adjusting the whole Squad's overall capability. Not a bad thing altogether !! But you don't want to be the lumbering Havoc if your 9 Raptor buddies like rapid striking away from good vantage points and/or interior combat. The opposite applies if you're defending a choke point against a Predator/Rhino/Razorback rush I guess. It's also why I predict lone wolves and people without a permanent gaming group will play Traitors or Aspiring Sorcerers more. Anyway, that's my essay. Suffice to say I am interested in hearing more about the system as it evolves.
