For a good while now, I've lived by some easy standards:

1) F2P games are F2P, but they have microtransactions. They don't have a requirement to buy a boxed copy, that would make them B2P.

2) B2P games do not have a cash shop. You pay once, you get everything, that's it. It ships with everything on the disc, and that's what you get. (Unless you're New Bioware and you start throwing out 1st day DLC)

This game doesn't quite fit into either of those. There's been F2P games like LoL that allowed you to buy a boxed copy, but these merely unlocked a generous portion of the heroes and runes that you could have unlocked through playing/smaller transactions as well. Here, you really can't begin enjoying most of the game until you buy a copy, yet the cash shop is still featured prominently.

If it were only cosmetics sales, I'd be ok, but it's not. "Sidegrades" make it a whole 'nother story. I've never seen a game like this where some of the sidegrades weren't flat out more popular than the main weapons, and who's to say several of the sidegrades won't fit my playstyle better? There's no guarantee they won't be more desirable for the main weapons for me, so I can't pretend it'll be dandy to just ignore all about them.

So I'm a bit conflicted. The game concept looks awesome, but the business model spooks me. When I talk to my friends about it I hear myself saying "You need to buy the game, and there's also a cash shop. It does have a few weapons but nothing major... probably." If I feel unsure endorsing a product to my friends because the business model is har dto pin down, and don't feel right doing so, there's a possibility the business model is a bit weird.

It almost seems like it's a sort of frankenstein MMORPG model. Subscription fee got replaced with a cash shop.

To clarify: I'm not saying the business model is wrong or bad, I'm just saying there's nothing quite like this out there that I can base my expectations on, so I feel weird thinking about becoming a founder because I'm not sure how much of my wallet this game is going to be expecting.

Anyone else feel this way? Any conflicting views? I open the floor to any and all discussion.

Side grades have many threads dedicated to them, the current word from the dev's is please wait until you get a chance to test them in game through betas before you cry fowl as they wish to have a chance to allay people's fears and if there are some that cause concern they will be reviewed.

The game is best considered to follow Guild Wars 2's model that it is buy to play but you can try before you buy as a basic orc with the free to waargh

Cash shops seem to be the norm these days no matter if there is a sub, FTP or BTP

Ah... Dude, I believe that Guild Wars it's B2P with microtransaction. So the model already exist.
I maybe wrong, but Angry Joe also states that:




Starts at 26:00

I'm not spooked because of Miguel's repeated mentions of how he hates p2w. It is b2p, with an optional cosmetic cash shop. This is only for people who play the game and want to stand out. Generally speaking, you probably won't really care for the cash shop, as I suspect that most cosmetic options will be included, but if you're like any standard TF2 player, you might spring for paying $4500 for a golden frying pan! (I'll admit I'm a TF2 player, and will make fun of other such players for being ridiculous about having hats and cosmetic effects)

The OP being "spooked" is naturally from Behaviour launching their founder program and cash shop WAY too early. There's just so much we don't know yet so naturally it's unsettling. All we can do is voice what we want and hope the developers don't center the game around microtransactions.

b2p MMO alway have some sort of cash shop.
(no sidegrade are not ok on a b2p game shop no matter what the dev team say about the perfect balance of the game i've never player an asimmetrical game with perfect balance)

I own GW2 and consider their business model completely reasonable. There's hardly anything but cosmetics on that shop, and everything that's not cosmetic (mostly stuff like extra bank tabs) can quite easily be gotten just by playing the game, as there is a gold (in game currency) -> gem (cash shop currency) conversion ratio. It just takes you a bit more game time that way.

I've even spent money on their in-game shop. I thought some of their costumes were really nice. They gave you some out-of-combat abilities you could use in a costume brawl mini-game against other players, it was fun stuff. I expect to be spending money on Eternal Crusade as well. I'm just against locking features behind a paywall when they are more than cosmetic on principle.

There's a lot of games that incorporate sidegrades into their system. TF2 does, for instance. Imagine if you had to buy TF2, and then pay in their shop for the sidegrades, no other way to get it. It would be madness. Most of the TF2 unlockable weapons are considered worse than the original guns, with the original set seeing most use in competitive play overall. Yet holy shit, would there be a shitstorm if they were cash shop exclusives. I could cite many other games exactly like this. This is why "We'll balance them super-good, don't worry guys!" does not really ease my mind.

Maybe past experiences have made me a bit cynical in this regard, too.

I once fanatically followed the development of a game called Darkfall. The devs promised us things over, and over and over again, and described their enormous passion for the genre and their game constantly, saying it'd be everything we ever dreamed of. It wasn't.

Some time after that the same happened with a game called Mortal Online. This one bombed hard as well.

Because of that, when these devs come along and say "We want you to pay extra money to unlock all the guns, but trust us, they'll be so balanced you won't even notice the difference not owning them makes!" I am skeptical.

Especially when the example they gave AngryJoe about how they'd do it is, for instance, you have a main gun that can fire after 3 seconds and do 100 damage, and then perhaps the sidegrade would be a gun that fires after 1 second, but for only 33,3333... damage. You might ask: Why? The DPS is exactly the same! True. The TTK a target below 67 health will be much faster with the sidegrade, though, so it'll be a much better weapon in normal circumstances. What if the situation is reversed? Well, the slower weapon would logically not be as desirable a purchase, but what if I want to try out a playstyle where I'm constantly in cover, charging up, and then popping out to unleash my fire before retreating into cover? The 3s weapon would be superior for that. Despite them being sidegrades, there's clear playstyles they're "better" at. What if my playstyle suits one of the sidegrades best? I'm forced to pay up, or feel like I'm under performing compared to what I could be doing due to a paywall.

Every gun is going to, in a certain way, offer a new experience to the user. Putting some of these behind a paywall means I don't get access to everything the game has to experience upon paying for it. If the gun is somehow so close to the original that you don't notice the difference at all, then that's bad too because you're wasting development time making things that don't make a difference. The entire situation just puzzles me.

The most puzzling thing, though... why on earth can't they have a payshop and make the weapons earnable in-game, at a slower pace? That would be a strong message to the community, I feel, and put a great many hearts at ease.

(By the by, I've also seen these relic founder weapons... I hope those are just skins, giving them different stats and making them unobtainable after launch would be insane.)

Weird or not, ~1000 relic bolters were sold before they changed the counters, meaning they got around $35,000 selling placeholder art of DLC for a game that isn't going to be out for two years, so it's probably here to stay.

Sad but true, I blame 100% the community on this specially those people pushing sidegrades that haven't bought the founders pack and some of them are not around the forums anymore.

My exact feelings on the matter, I backed the game because I was 100% sure I was gonna buy it even if it was horrible, luckily it seems like the game is going for the right way and I love what we can see and most of the design ideas, but the business model is the exact opposite and if it doesn't change I will have to vote with my wallet.

Incorrect. GW2 also sell items such as xp boosts (and boosts for other items, such as in game currency), more banking space, more inventory space, etc. Arguably they are an advantage. They're definitively not ''only skins''.