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Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Data8671, Mar 22, 2018.


Remove nade bursting?

  1. yes

  2. no

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  1. Krayt Krayt Preacher

    I dont care that its shit or not , the devs said it countless times , its not an exploit , so stop calling it like that
  2. Trashed Recruit

    Make them harder to hit like eldar and orks, maybe then people will see a difference (but then again its mostly just high lvl players using it anyways so idk)
  3. Eagle 11 Eagle_11 Well-Known Member

    Taking airbursting out of game would change too much regarding how grenades get used, for one it would mean you can safely throw and spray instead having to make an firepause for the grenade to reach its destination, the change would also invalidate tactics like screening your teammates with multimelta fire against incoming grenades.
    Aslong you can safely roll out of an grenade its not really an desirable change, the only to way to fix that would be to make grenades detonate faster, like on first impact instead on a set timer, and thats way more cheesy than what we currently have.
  4. Proteus Lychoro ProteusVM Forum Beta Tester

    It already is. People don't understand what the fuck they're talking about and are going off on irrelevant tangents literally non-stop for the past few pages in this thread.

    No one is winning 1v5 because they use grenade tricks, they are winning 1v5 because they are using better positioning, have superior aim and if they do make use of a grenade trick, have spot on positioning to hit as many people with the detonation as possible. Winning 1v5 in EC already is a mixture of combat prowess and tactical coordination - just not always in every situation, because a lot of retards play this game.

    As for Siege or CS:GO, those are both rather abysmal examples of skill based first person shooters - both of them put almost zero emphasis on consistent accuracy or tracking as much as they put focus on map knowledge, positioning, teamwork and crosshair placement/pre-firing. Both of these take skill mind you, but it's a totally different, far more casual type of skill. I can demonstrate this best simply by asking you to compare two systems.

    Which takes more skill:
    Consistently tracking the head of your opponent whilst maneuvering in order to throw off their aim, thus rewarding the player who has more skill not simply in tracking but also their positioning, timing and movement, ensuring that a victory is earned and not simply gained by overwhelming a better player. Rewarding skill and dedication with consistently higher performance.
    Placing yourself in a choke point where you will always have first shot advantage in a game where one shot can result in an instant kill and, at high levels, you can get into positions where it is practically impossible for them to push you without taking a casualty. The player is rewarded only for map knowledge and reaction speed, in some cases there is absolutely no option for counter-play. The game becomes a game of numbers, with skilled play only occasionally shimmering to the forefront amongst a sea of mediocre plays.

    Not all games are meant to be realistic - I absolutely agree that in games like Squad or ArmA, 1v5 should be death for the 1 in almost 90% of situations, but this is a sci-fi wargame set in Warhammer 40k. It isn't meant to be realistic, a great player *should* dominate weaker opponents.

    But the Rainbow Six and Counter-Strike of modern times (compared to Raven Shield and CS 1.6) can very much be seen to embody a far more casual version of the skills emphasized by games like Quake, Unreal Tournament, Doom (lol), heck even Battlefield and Halo rewarded skilled play over simple reaction based shooting. Players are rewarded for consistent tracking and accuracy greatly over simply spraying at the opponent or outnumbering them, there are some tools to help newbies too - vehicles and explosives for example.

    As for Battlefield - up until Battlefield 3, the Battlefield series very much rewarded tracking and positioning akin to something like Unreal Tournament over something like Siege or Call of Duty - you should look up some old gameplay of 2142 or battlefield 2, which are pretty much the best battlefield games ever made.

    I'm also aware that games should cater to all demographics, so even the people who play for 2 hours per month can put up some level of effectiveness but that's exactly what smart weapons, melee and melta function to do in EC - shit, even most of the devastator/havoc/reaper/loota weapons reward low skill moves with huge payoffs in terms of kills and XP.

    The game already caters to those who cannot perform effectively at high levels, we don't need to start taking things away from it to give scrubs a better chance - the issue is that they don't use the tools that would work better for them and still complain.

    As for good players running solo and expecting to win - no. As I've said, people have no idea what the fuck they're talking about. They look at @DemonKingBAAL or rather, Leroy, and see a lone wolf player who only cares about kills because they play this game at such a shallow level of understanding. The dude is a huge team player who bases almost all his attacks and movements around the information his teammates feed him via VOIP - his plays are a good mixture of aim, positioning, teamwork, coordination, map knowledge and equipment management pre-match, but people like Rheeva refuse to admit this.

    It's just his twitch aim bro! He isn't also consciously outperforming them in loadouts, teamwork and coordination or anything.


    Remove nade tricks - but only when you remove I-frames at the same time. I don't want to see it replaced with some cooking garbage, nade tricks at least take skill to hit reliably, see:

    But cooking a grenade? zero skill. The issue won't be resolved by this either, people will simply get mad because people are cooking grenades before pushing into a room and instantly killing an opponent who has less time to roll than before.
    You try hitting a grenade whilst being shot at by 5 people and, against CERTAIN FACTION, suppressed ;).

    If nade tricking goes - it goes. No replacing it with cooking bullshit, that takes zero skill and I can guarantee you, I will make shitters cry even harder with it because I'll be able to consciously cook it and push in even faster as I won't have to stop to aim to detonate the grenade.
    It's not game breaking and the developers have said it is intentional. It exists as a 'wow' factor for the most part and the situations where it is useful, it is only useful because the enemy doesn't pay attention to you throwing it and simply rush into you blindly, allowing you to nadetrick them.

    You have no idea what you're on about if you think nade tricking is why veterans are mowing through bads. It helps in dislodging a murder-blob of sorcerers, sure, but people like Leroy, Armgarion and BUSHIDO BLIP WARRIOR XXXX DURASH consistently gun down hordes of bads without it.

    And please, drop the realistic garbage. This is a sci-fi universe where magic exists and faith is rewarded with further magic powers, it is not realistic in any sense of the imagination. Space Marines can sprint at 40kph while firing with perfect accuracy in armour denser than what would be fitted on multiple aircraft carriers and heavier than several cars.
    Rolling and I-frames are intentional and were implemented by Brent 'I Love Dark Souls' Ellison. If you don't want to roll out of a grenade because you think it's an exploit, that's your hang up. It is an intentional mechanic and was implemented specifically to avoid explosive damage from weapons like the plasma cannon and grenades.

    As for reducing the TTK - as I said previously, EC is in a different category of skill from Rainbow Six or CS:GO. It actually fits into the camp of Battlefield pre-battlefield 3 which modernized the setting and changed it from tracking and positioning to reflex and twitch aim. EC rewards consistent tracking and headshots, very much like older shooters such as Quake and Unreal, whereas games like Siege reward positioning and pre-aim, hell, they even reward luck since all you need is one shot to kill someone, removing any need for dedication to managing your weapon as much as simply learning the map and positioning yourself to take advantage of choke points.

    I don't want to see the TTK in EC lowered - mostly because of the sci-fi setting, but also because it makes the game play uniquely and removes that element of randomness where someone who truly does not deserve the kill is able to score a random headshot and win the round for their team. That sort of nonsense is exactly why games like Siege and CS:GO are mostly seen as casual shooters outside of very high level play, where all opponents have perfect grenade placement, crosshair placement and coordination.
    Atsidas, Krayt, Durash and 1 other person like this.
  5. But what about when you can't react to it?
  6. Proteus Lychoro ProteusVM Forum Beta Tester

    Except the (former) Lead Game Designer has said as much as I-frames and rolling absorbing explosive damage is intentional. This was covered in one of the many streams they did leading up to the 'release' of EC.

    Love them or hate them, they are intentional mechanics.

    It is a bad, intended feature. The developers have said as much - it goes alongside nade tricking. Remove 'em both simultaneously.

    It isn't an exploit.
    It is a bad, intentional mechanic that should be removed alongside I-frames.
    Grenades should then also have their LP cost adjusted - frags down to 20LP and kraks down to 40.

    Grenades literally only have value in EC because they can be detonated early, the long time to throw is what fucks them over so badly. If we do remove I-frames/nade tricks though - cooking doesn't come in. That shit takes even less skill, you essentially trade something which takes some skill for something which any random can do with huge payoff for zero investment, you don't even have to practice to hit the things. Just hold G for a set time, throw, instantly down opponents. EZ.

    And leave the special forces veteran LARP at home please - I agree, games like ArmA and Squad benefit greatly from being realistic but this game has never appealed toward a tactical shooter or milsim crowd.
    data_angel, Atsidas, Aislinn and 4 others like this.
  7. Proteus Lychoro ProteusVM Forum Beta Tester

    I would 100% like to see wall running for Eldar.

    The other is just low hanging garbage shitposts - which you're known for.
    Stop it, go play Gears of War you turbo nerd.

    Play melee, run melta gun, play in a tank or run healer.

    All four of which require zero skill, allow you to defeat players like the mighty Leroy without trying and, at worst, will result in a mutual death to him assuming you don't just run at him and let him quadruple headshot you before the fight even starts.

    Stop blowing this garbage out of proportion. It's literally nothing.

    Yes, nadetricks are strong as fuck against clueless retards but they do literally nothing at higher levels. I too want them removed, but only once I-frames go. And then you shouldn't replace it with cooking as I've mentioned a few times because you basically trade the, 'some skill required' mechanic for 'zero skill required, free kills for all!'.
    Durash and Krayt like this.
  8. Durash Durash Arkhona Vanguard

    I would 100% like to see marine tears from getting gunned down by wall-running eldar like this is prince of persia.
    ProteusVM and Krayt like this.
  9. Proteus Lychoro ProteusVM Forum Beta Tester

    Here, from the best star wars mod ever made.
    Featuring the best ARC trooper ever played by yours truly.
    Some sources of inspiration for the new Eldar movement system.

  10. Proteus Lychoro ProteusVM Forum Beta Tester

    It's okay, I'm not really being sincere - we can still wrestle.

    Atsidas likes this.
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