OK one more stab at reason in the argument. And once again making clear from the outset I'm not Pro-P2W I just pay attention to things and am willing to examine all sides of an issue and then make decisions based on actual fact rather than emotions (unlike the some of the loudest voices in here). I am also intrigued (read not 100% sold on) by the sidegrades concept and want to see what bE comes up with.

If "side-grades" are P2W even a little bit (especially if it's only about variety which some insist would be P2W all on it's own), then by extension everyone not Free-2-WAAGHing is a P2W player.

This business model is a hybrid of both traditional and F2P concepts. (And no the idiotic concept that F2P is held to a lower standard is just balderdash, it's just been done wrong so many times people think that the wrong examples are how it works). In this situation you have a group of players with full access to the Orks without paying anything, they are limited ONLY to things that can be earned in game and only to the the Ork classes, whereas People who pay the $40 price tag (and founders) will have access to everything the free players have AND 3 other factions and all of their classes. By the the ridiculously narrow arguments made by many in this thread this should be black and white, paying players have more options paying players are P2W.

Yes or no? Or is there some flexibility here because there is a chance that the factions can be balanced.... hmmm if that's true maybe side-grades can be balanced too... what a world that would be if we could just wait to see actual evidence of the direction its going before we start kicking and screaming.

Nope, we paid for the game, RTP and early access, I'm pretty sure all the items in the store are susceptible to change, if someone thought he was paying for an advantage that's his problem.

a clarification because some people don't understand:
nobody is against sidegrade.
nobody want to remove sidegrade.

the problem is:

when some sidegrade are behind a wall: paywall, founder wall or 5% HH wall.

all sidegrade must be available to ALL player: for a simple reason, the game is B2P.

so when I BUY the game i want ALL the game not only the 90%95% of the gameplay.

if i play for FREE in a B2P game it's ok to have only 10%-20% of gameplay because if i want all the game i must buy it.

And there you go, you can officially rationalize anything that doesn't 100% agree with your already preformed opinion. You can't recognize the similarity not because it's not there but because you don't want to. If you 'd back off the proselytizing for a minute and realize that your entire argument is based on supposition, assumptions, and pre-judgement we could have an actual conversation about this, but it seems you are dead set on being right no matter what reality says, it's a shame because you are doing more damage to your cause through your bull headedness than you are serving your agenda.

A place doesn't have to be an echo chamber to be constructive, and everything doesn't need to be adversarial. All your approach does is gets people who don't already agree with you to ignore you and you've just driven one more person to that point. Good luck with the ranting.

True, I was just thinking about founder items (heresy items will be available for everyone) I guess we could have them as the only sidegrades... the lesser evil. Oh and the heresy items will be cheaper than 35$, the one who bought the first one will also get the next one and the rest will be cheaper (I guess 17.5$).

no you simply started by the point that the game is f2p.
is not.
the game is b2p.

the game is not f2p is not freemium not p2p is b2p

in a f2p game with a well Made shop you should have All the gameplay experience for free (example LoL PoE)
in a freemium or in a p2p game with a well Made shop you should have all the experience with the monthly fee.
in a b2p game with a well Made shop you should have all the gameplay experience with the price of the full game.

a lot of game have trial/unlimited time demo/free mode but you can't go to play wow free trial and tell "wow is p2w because i must buy the game and pay the monthly fee"

it's the same when you say "the game is p2w because trial player are limited"

Unless I missed an update, F2P players are limited to one class. They cannot use the whole Ork faction and they are likely to have other restrictions, too. It's less F2P, more a demo/trial. Exactly like how in WoW one can play until level 20 (I think it was 20) for free. By this logic anyone with a WoW sub is P2W. P2W doesn't include the cost of actually buying the game to begin with. We're not demanding everything be free. We're concerned that, as paying customers, we will still have non-cosmetic parts of the game blocked off to us unless we pay extra on top of what we already spent.

I doubt anyone would give a damn if the only things behind pay walls were cosmetics, similar to how games such as Guild Wars 2 handle it.

And honestly, there's not a whole lot of kicking and screaming. This is a theoretical discussion about what may happen should bE go about their business in the wrong fashion. Having concerns is not a crime.

There was a little bit of name-calling floating around, as long as that gets cleared up I think we should be fine.

Unfortunately, though, I'm afraid that this conversation/argument may not have a productive endgame. The usual argument of "pre alpha" is present, as always, but when you're talking about real money purchases it isn't easy to go back on your word. As has been said, people payed money for sidegrades, and they expect sidegrades. That promise is unlikely to change.

All we can do at this point is say we're disappointed. And we've done that. We can also say "I told you so" whenever another site scornfully dismisses EC's monetization. We've done that too. But at this point we're not really being very helpful. If these decisions have the potential to tarnish the game's image, we're already past the point of no return. It might be time to let things go, and simply hope that our statements of distaste prevent more Vyper situations from being introduced.

We don't know if that's how it will work. That's a prototype. We won't have the power to control the day and night like the devs can. As far as I'm aware, the devs haven't actually shown how players will change loadout. They've shown us the screen we'll see when we do it.

I've already stated that I want people to be able to earn all their sidegrades in game. I simply disagree with the idea that this "Pay to Win" will kill the game or something and think a lot of the detractors of it basically keep screaming that term without any real evidence. They obviously don't like it but that doesn't prove that it will kill this specific game. The beta testing would. I want everyone to be able to earn their stuff but we won't know how the system really works until we play it.