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Melta Bundle

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Rheeva, Jan 11, 2018.

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  1. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    Summoning @jbregg, @Pierrick

    Now, as I have said before: Nerfing the melta is not a huge deal. The current version on UAT is not fair, due to LP-cost, but that will probably be adjusted.

    I can not emphasize enough my main point: Do not just push another nerf for Eldar, it is beyond your imagination how much this hurts our playerbase. Do a few, much needed buffs first or simultaneously and noone will be mad at you.
    But this is not supposed to be the point of this thread. For now, I will be focusing entirely on feedback and suggestions around the Melta-bundle itself.

    1. How does this asset perform in-game right now and to what degree is it responsible for the excessive win-rate of Eldar?
    The double melta, since the removal of the Tempest, is the preferred scapegoat to blame a loss against Eldar on. This is based on a simple fallacy: It deals twice as much damage as a normal AV-loadout, hence it must be twice as strong. This is not entirely incorrect but also not entirely true.
    The most straightforward example to look at are skimmers. They die to conventional AV in almost the same time as other Tanks die to the melta bundle. Yet, they often end up lasting much longer, even unpiloted. Why that is? Because they are barely hunted.
    The main advantage, as I have discussed in this thread is not that Eldar-Av is directly stronger, but that we have more of it. This is not an argumentum ad SupremumToTheOtherRaces, this is a simple observation you can make in each and every match:
    -Non-Eldar pugs will have no AV-runners or one at best, the only people who use AV are guild-players.
    -Eldar will always field at least two Fire Dragons. If they have less, they almost always loose. Eldar are more likely to have too much AV than too little.
    Of course there are a number of other, contributing factors. Like the fact that other factions aren't used to AV being that fast, AV in general making a much bigger impact on the match then it should, Eldar tanks being way too fun to drive around in and so on...
    Conclusively: The removal of the melta-bundle may very well be justified, but claiming to do it to adjust win-rates is ludicrous.
    What this means is you will be punishing a faction for using a gameplay-element most other factions ignore.

    Imagine LSM were the only faction to ever play Support-classes and your response would be to nerf the Apothecary.
    A short exploration as to why ELdar somehow use more AV, again, it it is not because we are just so much awesomer, it comes down to three effects:
    -Fire Dragons are a dedicated class and simply much more present on everyone's minds.
    -The Dragon-OP-meme is strongly feeding into player's desire to actually play Dragon
    -Without swift AV, an effective defense is almost impossible to Eldar.

    2. What problems would your nerf successfully address/fail to address?
    For starters: One-hit-kills. So yes, the main problem would be fixed. But wait, only half of the main problem. Wave Serpents and Falcons are still OHK but I don't think anyone wants immortal lawnmovers to fly around either.
    But lets go more into detail here: The vast majority of transports are not protected at all. It doesn't really matter if I go in with 0.5 sec TTK or 10 seconds, noone will ever stop me!
    What would become a lot tougher is attacking Transports that are piloted or defended. And here comes the problem: those are already adequately hard to destroy. Not impossible, but challenging. The thing is that, with the changes, it will become next to impossible.
    Is that a problem? Shouldn't a team defending their transports be rewarded by their transports staying alive?
    Yes. And no.
    The problem I am seeing here is that nothing would change for the pugstomps and steamrolls we perform. They don't def their Tanks->their Tanks burn, we eradicate them.
    What would change are the fights that are currently fun and challenging, the one's I enjoy. Many of them would become next to impossible to win. I will be getting back to that in a moment.

    3. What could be done better in your, current iteration?
    We mentioned the LP-cost, that is a no-brainer. Additionally, the damage-change seems a bit harsh. The normal bomb should stay the way it is in the first place, for the bundle I would recommend 3500 or 4000. Its still enough for an enemy tank to take the full bundle+a good bit of a Fusion Burst before going down, hence plenty of time to apply a counter, but it wouldn't be automatically rendered safe.
    A different approach would be to nerf all available AV and I mean: all. AV, in general, is fairly powerful for how easy it is and could tank a nerf.
    On the other hand, most carries are already infantry-brawlers and I am not sure if we really want to give them yet more power.
    I feel inclined to say that Eldar, in general, need a buff to compensate for their loss in this regard but actually, that is not entirely correct.
    Looking at the win-rate, we probably don't need a buff to still win, even without AV.
    But that doesn't change the fact that we need a series of buffs completely independent from the AV-change. You know my list.
    If I knew you were doing this, I would have included more primary assets like DA Armour or Reaper Launcher alt-fire, but in any event, any buff would be welcome right now, even if it doesnt affect Faction balance as a whole.
    I should be mentioning buffs specific to the Fire Dragon tho. I said I would turn the Fusion gun into an effective multi-melta and I still see no harm in it.
    We have no reason to believe multi-meltas are OP but it would compensate the Dragons for their loss in One-shots and give them greater anti-infantry capacities.
    This change would be enough for me to, for fun, make and play a Dragon AI-loadout.

    4. What better approaches could there be to your problem?
    So, the problem is that Eldar win too much? Whereas we all like to claim we just have the best players and I am also almost certain that is true, I can't deny that 75% are statisctially pretty significant and about +15% above what I would consider a good outlier.
    In other words: There is most likely something in the game balance that gives us an advantage.
    I have two concerns coupled to your solution, one of which I expressed previously:
    -I believe you will only address the fair and fun matches, not the pugstomps where your focus should be.
    -The current AV fits our hit and run playstyle very well, as it allows us to end fights very quickly and avoid extended engagements
    Now, how do you nerf pugstomps without nerfing Eldar? This should be the question on your minds! Lets just, for the moment, say AV is not the solution. Hawks come to mind, as our most powerful class, but Hawks are also all-around perfect. Changing anything about the Hawk without obliterating the amazing and unique playstyle of the class could be next to impossible so I will not further touch the subject for now.
    Warlocks are fairly obvious, more specifically our core-buff: Enhance. Enhance is incredibly powerful and serves as a crucial tool in high-level engagements. However what it does not need is the effortless, 100% uptime.
    Buffing your team for a single push should be possible, buffing them consistently should not.
    If I think about all our pugstomps, the only common Factor I see is that the enemy just runs straight at us with no tactic, no plan, no coordination and gets torn apart. I am hesistant to say this but, if we want to avoid pugstomps, maybe we have to find a way to make that behaviour more rewarding against Eldar...

    In any event, I would like to repeat what I said when the Tempest was on UAT: do not just port this to live! It will remove this asset from the game, it will kill the Fire Dragon as a class but it will not significantly change our win-rates. We will find something else, we will still stomp.
    I have never needed AV against bad teams, it only becomes necessary in challenging fights!
    I was right last time, I will be now. If you want to nerf Eldar, stop forcing us to play out every option we have and give us the ability to be lazy.
    This might sound stupid but I am pretty sure that if we had a Boltgun and +70 EHP, most of our Fire Dragon players would prefer Dire Avenger.
    The more you force us to tryhard the more successfuly we will be.
    As with the last nerf, I am not angry or anything. I am merely disappointed in how short-sighted and easily manipulated by community opinion you are. Jordan specifically, with his excessive playtime, I would believe to know better than to think the Melta Bundle is truly responsible for any Eldar wins.
    At this point I have to wonder if you see us as a faction in our own right or just as a balancing-inconvenience for the Space-Marine master race. And if I am entertaining such thoughts, you can be fairly sure that the majority of the remaining Eldar has already reached a conclusion.
  2. No.

    Dont delude yourself - nothing will be changed even with shittons of feedback. We got a fact - here is a nerf, you are unworthy eldar creatures can shit some bricks on forums and shut the fuck up. Because LSM suffer from pugstomp and you DARE to run a warparties for TEAMPLAY. Codex Astartes is forbidden book for novadays astartis so its betternerf irelia again. Handicap eldar even more.

    Do they expect any eldar after this? Do they expect any remains of morale of eldar community to have a willing to play their favorite but the most hated faction by everyone even devs? It smells like racism.

    Go on. Nerf dragons. Who cares now. "People will eat this". Ahaha no. Хуй

    TL DR
    Now eldar need TWO meltabudles to destoy a rhino. 8000 (2500/2500/2500/2500) AHAAHAHAAHAH TWO MELTA BUNDLES, what a nerf.
    Plazm, XZASrus and Firskon like this.
  3. Krayt Krayt Preacher

    Its on uat it will change , ur overdramatic as always
  4. If every bomb will deal 3500 not only eldars 2500

    but i doubt - nothing will change or changes will be so minor that eldar will suck more as always

    about UAT - people said the same about tempest and other stuff, and about eldar ehp nerf

    tl dr
    eldar rip so op with EVERY asset beeing inferior
    Firskon likes this.
  5. Its not the fact that we mind the nerf, it just the principle that we are being nerfed again without getting anything in return. Eldar aren't, and never will be, multiskilled generalists like LSM are. We have shrines, those shrines are dedicated to specific roles, its been like this since 1987 when 40k came into being. Every faction pugstomps, as there is no co-ordination between pugs, unless you run into one of them rare beasts of each player knowing how to work together.

    However, Eldar dont shout and scream and throw a tantrum on the forums because we get stomped on in a pug match, we all say fair enough we werent good enough in that match. What LSM/CSM hate, and really throw the baby out with the bathwater over, is when they run into a guild stack. Its those guild stacks that use AV more effectively, and now we're being punished even more so for playing as a team and not some glory hunting LSM.
  6. Lady Rheeva Steam Early Access

    As long as the nerf is not on live, I prefer to work with the devs towards improvement, not against them.
    If the current build was going up on live tomorrow, I would probably leave the game but it is not likely to happen and, until then, I will do whatever I can to make my concerns heard.
    If the devs choose to ignore me or disagree with me, thats one thing, but I will not pass on an opportunity to make a positive impact.
  7. Krayt Krayt Preacher

    I am gonna look at it , its not gonna hit live with these numbers
  8. Xio Valency Xi0 Preacher

    I just see a wall of text full of suggestions, what was the exact changes they did to the melta bundle?
    DrDooManiC likes this.
  9. Krayt Krayt Preacher

    3500 damage single
    2k5 x2 for bundle
  10. Xio Valency Xi0 Preacher

    Just wondering melta bombs did 4k damage before the change right? do melta bombs share the same 3.5k damage as the single fusion bomb?
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