SM's melee was basically hack'n'lash, and worked in PVE. But in PVP, well, it was just basically spamming your button and spinning your character until you hit something, how is that not also a mess? And yes I played enough SM and hack'n'lash games to know that kind of melee system does not work in PVP context, you want something along the line of M&B or Dark Soul to make it work. M&B approach would actually work if there weren't so many guns in the goddamn universe. What seems to me is that the melee is sufficient at the moment (the new twitch one), the main problems however lie in the camera view and camera movement (motion sickness) A really really good melee system that would fit EC? For Honor comes to mind, but implementing such system at this state would be a nightmare.
I'm lazy, just read these: And stuff. Basically, Space Marine worked for the most part, it just needs a few alterations for it to work better. EC's system is a "Frankenstein's Monster" currently, its mixing dark souls and M&B which is just making a messy shitstorm. Space marine was smooth and flowed well, only problem was the button mashing, EC is really just a shittier buttonmash. Just use space marines system, add a block, and a kick instead of all this other garbage and you have a good system.
All I took from that is that you hate camera lock? So explain to me why the core melee mechanic is broken and needed to be remade from scratch again? Because as of now the melee attack mechanic is the same, you press 1 or 2 buttons to perform an attack sequence, and spam it until your opponent dies , the only difference is that SM let you spin around like a disco ball. Talking about button placement, you know we don't have full key binding yet, don't you? Furthermore, you compared EC to M&B, I must say that is not the case at all, the melee mechanic in M&B is night and day different, compare EC to Nosgoth is much more suitable, Nosgoth also has a melee system that restricts you a lot (locking your camera and shit), but being restrictive is not alway equal bad. You said DS was built around 1vs1 and boss fight. Do you realize EC also tries to be suitable for both 1vs1 and 1vsmany? While SM was basically made for horde mode against dumb AI, 1v1 in that game between melee guys require no skill at all, you hit first and you win, which EC also currently is at the moment but trying to move away from. Lastly, you know what game has free camera hack'n'lash + cam-lock guard mode? Dynasty Warriors. They tried to make a MMO out of it, and no, it was not a successful MMO. Cuz most of the time you use 1 button, spin around until someone hits first, then the one getting hit die. The cam-block guard mode did not work AT ALL. EC has an passive aim-assist block, still noone seems to have the time to use it (not that easy when there are at least 10 bolters and other shit shooting at you), and you expect them to actively spin camera around to block melee attack?
Well, the cam lock is an annoying asshole half the time, as all the animations feel like your being forced into a tube with John Cena ramming a stick up your ass while you go, at least in space marine it was a fluid motion that was enjoyable. Charged/Powered attacks are retarded and useless unless you stand behind someone, in which case you pretty much 1shot them. In Space marine, you could at least react to your enemy and get out of there or have a chance to fight back, in EC, its pretty much, you get hit, you go down unless there is someone standing next to you that shoots them. I dont see that as an excuse for anything sorry, poor keybinding is just silly. I didn't really compare it to M&B, I said its mixing that and DS/SM which just doesnt work. If they want a system, use one or the other, or else it's just a shitfest like the system now. I'd say all restrictions are bad, especially for melee combat, it just takes away all the fun and flow and pretty much gives you a shit on a plate and forces you to eat it. It tries to suit both and fails miserably. In 1v1's when we were both face to face were the only times it ever felt like it could somewhat work, even then the fight was all over the place and we had no idea what was going on. Well at least SM was good. In multiplayer I've been a tactical and killed many assaults, the only thing making someone stronger than you was whether you moved your ass in time, which I usually did. The only balance issues were with the ranged weapons for the most part. EC is trying to be far more technical than what it needs to be, the devs have been through probably hundreds of systems for the melee combat and so far have make it a technical shitfest. Compare it currently to the original 10 streams and I have to say I prefer what it originally was. All this other crap just gets in the way and is making it less fun than what it looked like it could've been. Who the shitballs plays dynasty warriors? From what I've seen it looks as though its just poorly implemented as hell. View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUgmgB3TCBI One of the early systems in EC had a soft lock with attacks, meaning you went towards the enemy if you attacked in their general direction, similar to the Witcher. Adding a non-cam-locked block to that could work, or even trying to get a cam-locked block with that, they could at least try instead of using the current horrible system. No one is asking for a 1:1 ratio of EC and SM, we're asking that they get rid of all the bs and use what we know works, I'm tired of the idea that they need a 'unique' system for the game, its not unique its just bad. All Space Marine needed was a few tweaks here and there and a blocking system to counter assaults melee, and to give the kick/bash more meaning as it can be used to counter a block. That isn't asking for much you know? EC barely has any kind of blocking system in place, well none that I know they have. I'd like for the devs to at least try to fix their game instead of just taking steps sideways and never getting anywhere, its been 2 years since development started and I was hyped as hell during the first year, now I'm just waiting for them to announce that they're going to redo half of everything that has been currently made. Also, you haven't said anything about why EC's system is good. And I'm curious as to why you bother defending it so much.
Cam-lock block doesn't work, demonstrated in Dynasty Warrior, and there are a shit tons of people who play that game, they've reached DW8 for godsake. Space Marine is like an infant in the hack'n'lash genre compare to that game. EC doesn't mix M&B with Dark Soul, if they mix M&B in it, you would strafe around swinging your chainsword, not doing a frontal sequential attack. Nosgoth has cam-lock melee, it's restrictive and it works. I like that system, which is similar to EC right now. Why? Because you have to guess and predict your enemy's movement before striking (at least EC has a lock-on system for you). SM's melee on the other hand, lacks the precision, you simply spam buttons, which is a lot easier than EC because you have a top down vision and 360 degree range of attack. TB also mentioned this in his impression video. The only thing I dislike about EC's melee right now is that it punishes people who get hit first too much, you stand no chance to fight back (like in SM), since the staggering time is too high and too frequent. And you do realize that EC's very similar to SM as of now, right? Remove that cam lock, increasing the attack animation speed and you basically have the same melee system. Now they've removed that obsolete blocking mechanic, they're just becoming more and more similar.
I dont want to keep having a rambling argument that will get nowhere, so just look at a few threads. http://forum.eternalcrusade.com/threads/guarding-target-lock-doesnt-feel-good-or-necessary.49031/ http://forum.eternalcrusade.com/threads/the-movement-again.48915/ http://forum.eternalcrusade.com/threads/raptors-assaults-stamina-and-stun-community-edition.48599/ http://forum.eternalcrusade.com/threads/mortal-stun-bat.48980/
I agree, the Space Marine melee system (including the kick) with an added block button would be heaps better. Obviously the block button should not mitigate all damage (so you can just tortoise shell). Block in combination with movement, general hand to hand tactics can win you a fight.
Block doesn't work with free camera, unless you have a lock-on system, if it worked, Relic would've implemented it. The problem I want to resolve is the buttong smashing, which EC and SM both fall into. And like I said, the melee in both games down to the core is the same, EC's melee is basically SM with camera lock and slower attack animation. This should be obvious to you, the same scenario happens again and again in both games, Assaults jump, stun, then chop people to death, if they fail, rinse and repeat, this still happens when 2 melee guys fight each other, blocking becomes obsolete. Now if they remove camera lock and give you smoother attack animation (both of which they probably will do if there are enough people complaining about it), plus the kick (the block in free camera movement doesn't work like I said), you basically have SM 1.1, nothing changes. The fact that they remove block is also a proof that they move back to SM's melee. At this point, it would be better if they just bought For Honor's melee system to be honest. I personally don't mind the camera lock, I experience the same thing in Nosgoth and have no problem with it. The attack animation, well, let's say it has a lot of rooms for improvement.
