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Melee makes me SCREAM! (Official response EOT)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Scoligrosis, May 16, 2017 at 7:55 PM.

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  1. Rageageddon Rageageddon Steam Early Access

    Having 50/50% balance probably is next to impossible but having it balanced enough where people feel like their doing something is. (I'd take 60/40 if not 70/30) The main reason why the balance is so screwed up here is because THERE ARE SO MANY CRYBABIES WIELDING GUNS.

    I will dutifully admit that there was and still is broken/messed shit that should be fixed (and have been fixed) such as old PCannon, Heavy Bolter sniping, Kannon Deffgun, Fist-spamming JPKs and what not, but there are too many bolter-fanatics (for lack of a better term) complaining about melee FOR ALL THE WRONG REASONS.

    "Oh a melee guy got behind me and killed me and I couldn't do anything with mah heavy bolter"
    Well DUH he got behind you with a frigging power weapon. What did you EXPECT? I don't see melee bitching about having to AVOID your heavy gunfire just to get too you without dying because you will 100% rape them all the time at ranged combat. (Except when we had HB sniping, that was just plain stupid)

    "Well I'm a Tactical and I'm auto-dead if a melee class starts hitting me, it's a free kill. That's not fair"
    1. It's not a free kill because you have multiple chances to shoot him down before he can close the distance.
    2. You can fight back with a knife and if you're good at it, you can win!
    3. If he snuck up on you, let me put it this way. "IF SOMEONE GOT BEHIND YOU IT'S USUALLY YOUR FAULT FOR NOT PAYING ATTENTION." It doesn't bloody matter if he's wielding a gun or a sword at that point. A melee assassin is going to ram his weapon where the sun doesn't shine and a ranged assassin is going to unload a clip into the back of your thick skull.

    "Well melee isn't mean't for killing, it's mean't for tanking and distracting"
    Do you people even know Warhammer 40K? You realize melee is a big part of the setting right? Glorious combat? RIP and TEAR? WAAAGH!!!! and all that? (I won't argue that shooting will arguably kill more but melee is NOT just a TANKING TOOL FOR 40K)

    And just to remind people... YOU CAN"T TANK IN THIS GAME WITHOUT A SHIELD. Max out your EHP (toughness, armor, health idc) on a regular melee loadout and see how long it takes for a bolter to kill you. That's how long you can tank and distract here. (I'll give you a hint: it's less than 2 seconds)
    Roon and spunkymonkeySK like this.
  2. SmurfKun Tamu Well-Known Member

    Your forgetting one thing there... number 2 accord to certain melee "players" must neva happen cuz they gots into melee so they should insta win. Other then that your more or less spot on.
    TheAngryDoge likes this.
  3. Rageageddon Rageageddon Steam Early Access

    My only argument to that is that it should be dependent on the weapon and of course on HOW melee fights are handled. (Which is poorly at the moment) As of right now many Tacticals are winning not because the they're 'out knifing' their opponents, but because the knife can stop a Power Axe or a Power Fist long enough for either someone to shoot them or give them the chance to backup and unload a clip at point blank range. I'm all for a Pfist user breaking through a knife (He's paying 500+ for it) because right now, there is little point in taking a higher lp cost, slower weapon.

    I think I said it before but: I will not get angry about losing to "Bash, Slice, Slice" but I will get upset at the moment about losing to "Bash, Bang, Bang" because of both how effective it is at stopping the entire archetype and how easy it is to perform.

    There have been many suggestions and ideas on how to improve upon this rather than directly nerfing knives and ranged weapons.

    Things such as:
    Proper Weapon Swapping between Melee and Ranged with Tacticals,
    Locking Tacticals to knives and pistols when engaged,
    Delaying use of main gun after being struck in melee,
    Spirit options and Charge bonuses for Melee,
    A ranged weapon damage reduction when locked in CC,
    Changing the clang system so a person with a weaker melee weapon takes damage instead of parrying 100% of all of it.
    Reworking penetration again so it assists in clangs, damage and/or weapon destruction (especially since Toughness can be raised over most power weapon's pen values...)

    But we've gotten NOTHING.
    Nothing too balance this out, no hotfix, no tweaks. NOTHING.
  4. Rathael Rathael Arkhona Vanguard

    A note on durability and making it more important...If you reduce stun times, knives will no longer be able to hit twice during the stun. It currently takes 4 knife hits to down a default LSM JPA, wheras your combat knife can only survive 3 clangs before break. the fourth hit breaks. Even if you win all 3 trades, you will not even down a basic class without upgrades... let alone more durable enemies like elites or high-toughness enemies.

    People don't realise it yet because of the current fuckery with long stuns, but if and when stun durations are reduced, it will become clear that the knife is currently pointless in melee. It has too little durability to score any melee kills unless it's against Eldar.

    The durability system is incredibly flawed right now, and by its nature removes the skill required for heavier weapons to win. As long as the number of clangs the knife can endure is lower than the number of winning clangs required to score a kill, tacticals will find it impossible to ever win a melee even if they win every single trade. It will result in the return of "JPApocalpyse" where melee classes are able to just mindless spam the same move over and over and still win regardless.
  5. 2 mont roadmap:
    o Fix melee

    I'm still waiting...
  6. But Dbash doesn't beat Power Attack? It beats Fast Attack.

    I agree there're lots of problems, I'll add others that me and my friends always face:
    1. Teleporting meleers, like moving 30 meters behind you in 0.1 secs, hit you and then go back to their original position. Never saw that with ranged chars
    2. Banshees Power Attacking your Fast Attack like nothing, Fast Attacking your DBash and DBashing you Power Attack, by now I just assume they're tons faster than me and whatever I do they do it first and will always best me at anything, as a tactic I have my fair chances with every other class in game in melee, win more melee encounters than lose, but if it's a Banshee it's impossible, will lose so by now I don't even try
    3. Hawks being impossible to stun
  7. Imperator5 Imperator5 Well-Known Member

    Space Marine had melee right.

    Tactical could roll out of reach and bolter.
    Assault could leap away from the roll or towards the roller, and cut them down.

    It was a test of skill.

    EC:

    Tactical shoots down melee if melee is sighted at X range.
    Tactical gets melee with knife if luck favours the Dbash.
    Melee kills the ranged if the dbash does not work.

    It is a test of luck mostly. Did the guy see you? Will the dbash land through the lag?
  8. Ajeksandr Ajeksandr New Member

    Guys have a question I know that we have RPS mechanic and FA beat HA at start of animation but should it beat it at the stance when you fly in leap. I mean after this blip sound ?
  9. Doge TheAngryDoge Active Member

    Fist is an AV weapon. People complain Dbash beats fists Heavy Attack. Fist Heavy attack doesn't counter Dbash, it counters Roadkill and the vehicle running away.
  10. Nathan Richardsson Oveur Senior Producer

    I see that ALL CAPS is coming back with some ferocity lately. Sadly, it doesn't change any facts.

    So what have we done for melee lately?

    Fixed it all? No. Impossible. It's so complex.

    Kept on fixing it? Every single large patch. Just read the patch notes. And we are still doing it.​

    So let's not confuse when we say "fix melee" means that we find a magical bug that fixes everything, and suddenly the golden ratio of balance appears. This is a long process of unwinding a lot of very old stuff that simply isn't working as intended. It means we have people on it continuously. We didn't move them to make dance animations for RTC.

    But that's how you eat an elephant. One bite at a time.

    Have a nice day!

    Thread locked for posterity and sticky. Other will be locked. Thread 703 isn't necessary to make me aware of this problem.
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