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Melee makes me SCREAM! (Official response EOT)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Scoligrosis, May 16, 2017.

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  1. Torquemadra Recruit

    Whoever implemented melee in this way needs to be cast into the warp, its outright idiotic and the worst system I have come across in any game. I feel genuinely bad for people running melee veterans because i can just stun and mow them down with impunity on 'ranged' classes.

    The only melee I play in this game is powerfist because its funny and scorpion because you have half a chance to get attacks off before they react.

    Stun knife duration is outright retarded.
    TacoTuesdayOrBust22 likes this.
  2. TGM Jencent Cardinal

    Ok. Not 50, but close enough.
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    Xengard and TacoTuesdayOrBust22 like this.
  3. Unbiased Unbias3d Steam Early Access

    If you aren't using your pistol in melee, then you're not doing melee right.
    Njord-Halfhand likes this.
  4. Demetri Dominov Demetri_Dominov Arkhona Vanguard

    Fix melee rules before complaining over the power of weapon tiers.

    Also, as I've said way too many times, melee is still not fluid enough and relies way too heavily on stun to do anything. This needs to go and then, and only then we can talk about the balance of damage. Do damage beforehand like a band-aid and it'll just fuck everything up even more and have to unfuck itself to get fixed.
  5. It's only been here for 12 weeks. Surely there's a fix to be had? TWELVE WEEKS to figure out this is broken as hell.

    I fail to comprehend how one of the worst mechanics in game, one of the most game breaking of aspects in Eternal Crusade(easily in the top 3) cannot be tweaked in any way over a 12 week period? Seriously guys, please fix this horrible aspect of game play.
  6. Rathael Rathael Arkhona Vanguard

    Honestly you're not wrong about the rolling Dbash thing.

    I have, on several occasions, tried to get some input from any developer about that feature and if it was intentional. Neither Alexis, Nathan, Noah or Brent ever answered my questions about it.

    The closest thing I can remember is that, when they were introducing the defensive bash in Alpha, Brent himself explained it as "the idea is that it will deflect your attack, and if you don't get out of the way in time, the enemy gets stunned and you can kill him or deal some damage" or something to that effect.

    Being able to dodge the Dbash kick would be fine, but the durability system completely fucks with it. It increases the number of melee trades required to kill a target by 3 or 4, if you include stamina regeneration time.... assuming you could do it inconsistently.

    Exactly as you stated, it's not even consistent. I physically cannot do it. Ever. Period. 100% consistency. The times I do are rare chances. Others however? Seem to be able to do it absolutely reliably, and it completely fucks the meta.

    It would be nice to know what Alexis originally intended with his vision for the melee system, but I have yet to ever receive an answer.

    But what replaces stuns? It requires:
    • Something that allows for a bit of lag due to the scale of some of the matches. This eliminates any sort of small-window timing-based interactions.
    • Something that demands skill on behalf of the user.
    • Something that allows ranged classes to prevail with if they play correctly, but with a large advantage to melee-equipped characters.
    • Something that requires some degree of decision-making that is not in any way arbitrarily decided by statistics or speed or anything else.
    If you remove all the stuns and just have the winning trades deal direct damage, how do you explain the Dbash kick? Why on earth would a kick to the face deal the full damage of a chainsword? For the bash to make sense, it has to stun or the animation otherwise be changed that the weapon is hitting instead of doing a kick.

    I believe if both clang-recovery times and stuns are significantly reduced, the frustration will be greatly alleviated. It's only annoying because every time you get into a bash stun, you're stunned for longer than the TTK of most ranged weapons in the game. It would be much less frustrating if you could escape most of that damage.

    However, durability is still a large issue, because durability caps the amount of trades a player can survive. Currently, we have a horrible situation where ranged classes can survive fewer trades than it takes for them to get a kill with their combat knife. It is only the sheer length of the stuns that allow them to prevail, right now.

    I never understood why this is an issue. Rock-paper-scissors is a game of prediction, not reaction. In most cases it is physically impossible to see, respond and win a melee trade in EC. You simply do not have a fast enough eye-brain-hand communication time if you take lag and battle-heat into account.

    You are not able to read and counter in this game. That's not the point of it. The only time you can really do that is Dbash into an incoming fast attack, because the Dbash is 100% instantaneous, and the fast attack has a moderate swing time (especially in the case of slower weapons).



    Take look at the Dbash - Strong attack trade just after 1:15.

    My training partner enters the Dbash at 1:17 on the youtube clock. The Dbash fires at 1:18 and interrupts my strong attack which was started just beforehand.

    This means that you have less than 1 whole second to see the Dbash and react to it... because any more than the fraction of the second it takes to fire the Dbash will interrupt your strong attack.

    Firstly... lag shaves off a large portion of that fraction of a second. Secondly, the travel time of your eye's signal, processing time of your brain and travel / activation time of your fingers in response will shave off another large amount of that fraction of a second.

    That leaves you with probably what is less than around 0.2 seconds to respond. In the heat of battle, this will simply not be reliably possible. Melee is not about seeing your opponent's move and choosing a response. It is about choosing your response according to what you think they will choose. Their animations do not matter. Only what you think they will choose to do.
  7. Delgear Steam Early Access

    right now yes .... because a pistol is a better melee wepaon than a melee weapon .... if you are circumventing the melee rules of rps to dbash and mercury pattern to the head, and that is THE PREFFERED method of death dealing which it presently is .... then you arent meleeing you are pistoling with a glorified stick in your hand.

    my argument isnt that melees shouldn't use thier pistol but it is presently THEIR BEST OPTION AS THE MAIN WEAPON. you are drastically better off bying an expensive plasma pistol or mercury pattern than spending your LP on a melee weapon you will only ambush or skate swing to bait your opponent into dbashing so you can roll and kill them from full with a pistol .... or from one quick of hp off with said pistol. it would be different if you were using your pistol while closing the distance or to catch runners ..... but thats not the case you are using the pistol as the mushroom in rock paper scissors at present.

    Shooting a pistol is not a melee attack its the wrong mouse button ...... and it shouldn't for gods sake be the PREFERRED melee attack for a MELEE MAIN. which it is. if you are going to have classes ANCHORED to melee with no non melee options to compete then melee has to be at least viable and close in quality and power .... and if you do your cqc fights with just a melee weapon you will see it isnt .... how does the possessed use a pistol ? how do you in general win against say a storm boiler with just a pistol ? ask the eldar players how that is going ..... your argument makes no freaking sense it takes 0 context into account.
    Rathael likes this.
  8. Come on, they were busy with the amazing Possessed Recycled Marine, and the brethtaking campaign events.
  9. I have two feels in general:

    -Melee is great when someone is not actually trying to fight you back in CQC. Notice in people's melee videos how about 1/3rd of their kills come from face-to-face confrontations, and the other 2/3rds come from back attacks and flanking a big firing line of enemies and reaping through 3 people like a corn harvester before anyone knows they're there.
    -Most of my shameful melee deaths while doing melee feel like because my opponent correctly predicted what I was going to do. I think the way you roll out of a dBash is if you just expect the dBash to happen and roll preemptively. You can clearly see it happen when someone actually manages to roll out of the way of your dBash before it strikes, and unload their side arm into your head while your animation is still playing. Lord knows I've done it enough. It's this element of prediction that, when added to the mistimed animations and latency, gives the melee system the appearance of complete inconsistency.
  10. Unbiased Unbias3d Steam Early Access

    I think you're reading a bit too deeply into what I said.

    I'll just get out of the way now that it is widely known that eldar pistols suck.

    Onto my main point though. RPS is not meant to be the end all be all of melee. It's just the core that everything else is balanced around. What you do in a given melee encounter should not be dictacted by RPS, but by what you think the enemy will not expect. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd have to say that half of my melee kills come from finishing enemies with my pistol, 1 third from my melee weapon, and the remainder from grenades. You might say that for melee encounters, the usage of my pistol to secure kills is way too high, but that's really more to do with my playstyle. I'm not going out of my way to kill people with the pistol, I just use it as the situation demands.

    As far as the possessed is concerned, its main problem is that its only weapon is a powerfist, which is more of an AV weapon than a melee weapon. Only a power fist god like @Jencent could ever hope to do even marginally well with it. Even with the incoming melee fixes, I don't think the possessed will ever be viable unless they change its fist so that it can swing much faster.

    TL;DR version: pistols are useful, but they don't replace melee weapons, they just supplement them.
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